Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

I've actually noticed that some gas cars these days don't have any noticable carbon deposits in their tailpipes. Last one I remember seeing was a late model Ford Focus.

Are you sure you want to open that can of worms?

 

My personal opinion. I keep my keys in right pant pocket so they aren't that hard to find. I still have to carry the keys around with me and get them out to lock and unlock the house. So for me the SKS advantage is minimal. I still think the technology is cool.

My wife, on the other hand, completely disagrees with me. She carries her keys in her purse and loves the not having to search for the car keys.

 

You missed my point - my point was that you are bringing up the topic of what features are necessary and what are frivolous.

 

Isn't that the whole point of this thread?

• That the editors at Edmunds had the audacity to pick the TDI over the Prius because they prefer handling to fuel economy
• That Edmunds is biased because they tested a Package 6 Touring Edition Prius against a Jetta TDI Loyalty Edition and all those extra options on the Prius are frivolous and only add to the price

This entire thread is people's opinions about what features are important, which aren't, and how Edmunds should have equipped these two cars to get a fair comparison.

 

<AHEM!>There were a few other elements in addition to cost. However, "apples and oranges" comparisons have been one of the easier flaws. For example, CNW Marketing still(?) claims the "Chevy Aveo" is a better alternative to a Prius. Taken to the extreme, a bicycle is a better alternative to <insert vehicle you don't like>.

But there is one area where I still draw exception ... a lone voice perhaps:

Just like the "Top Gear" nonsense about a Prius getting 17 MPG versus 19 MPG for a BMW. Edmunds at least admitted they could not return a single value that has any relevance to a standard test.

Now if Edmunds listed say the USA EPA numbers for the two vehicles; the European numbers for the two vehicles; and the Japanese numbers for the two vehicles. Then we would have reproducable tests and could draw some useful conclusions. But to then sieze upon a number 'they liked' and try to give advice, sorry but that is the Through the Looking Glass chapter on Humpty Dumpty:

'When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'I always pay it extra.'
​

When has a scribbler gone across the line of some adherance to facts and data and now just written advertising copy? ... When they hit "send" to submit their story?

Bob Wilson

 

Bob,

Are you upset that they are calling you a nerd by linking to your instructions on how to get all 100 mpg's on the consumption screen?

OR

Are you upset that they reported their best, worst, and average fuel economy numbers in addition to the EPA's numbers?

 

Because they didn't use the EPA numbers for the mileage comparison. With EPA numbers we are seeing "apples-to-apples" and if any one of us goes out and drives our test vehicle, Prius or TDI, following the EPA protocol, we are very likely to get exactly the same numbers regardless of the vehicle.

As for my script, I'm kinda of flattered that they found and used it. Over in the TDIclub area, I also posted how to get any "Top Gear" numbers too (aka., 17 MPG.) It is as simple and reproducible as my script on 'how to get 100 mpg'.

All of these 'personal best' things are nice but terribly misleading. As Doug Schafer once pointed out, you might as well coast down from Pike's Peak (or the highest part of the Continental Divide) as use any non-engineering MPG numbers. Yes, getting the tricks is important but for every 'good trick', there is an 'evil trick' and ultimately they can be (and in this case were) misleading. They even admitted not getting the same numbers that they'd gotten before with another Prius vs. other vehicle test.

Bob Wilson

 

You assume that Edmunds is using "tricks" to put out misleading mileage information. I think they just drive the cars and record what mileage they get at each fill-up. No tricks involved just what they observe. Yes, editors have lead feet and in general they get lower mileage than the EPA. This is not unique to the Prius or hybrids in general they get less that EPA ratings in almost every vehicle the test. Edmunds includes the EPA ratings and their observed mileage is every test I've seen.

While the EPA test schedule is a scientifically repeatable test is goes a bit for to say that it matches reality:

1) By the EPA's own admission the EPA test rates Diesels up to 18% lower than reality. (I've posted the EPA report multiple times here on PC) The 2008 EPA test was specifically tweaked to make gasoline and hybrid cars EPA test results match consumer's results while diesels simply aren't a large enough segment to worry about. If only the EPA ratings are used to compare vehicles this puts diesels at disadvantage.

I have personally found that I get ~ 2008 EPA mileage with the Prius and much better than 2008 EPA mileage in my TDI. If you go to Fuel Economy and compare the official EPA ratings to the "Your MPG" feature you will find the same result.

• The Prius official EPA ratings average to 46/44/44 mpg. The 671 Prius owners from 2001 to 2009 model years report an average of 47.1 mpg. (The 120 2006 Prius owners average 44% city / 56% hwy)
• The Jetta TDI official EPA ratings average 29/33/41 mpg. The 383 TDI owners from 1998 to 2009 model years report and average of 43.6 mpg. (The 112 2006 Jetta owners average 35% city / 65% hwy)

If you look at these numbers you see that the difference between TDI mpg and Prius mpg is no where near the 26% difference predicted by the EPA ratings.

2) EPA testing is done on a dyno and is drivetrain specific, not vehicle specific. A couple of examples:

• The VW 2D Rabbit, VW 4D Rabbit, VW Jetta Sedan, and VW Jetta Sportwagon all have the same EPA mpg rating for the 2.5L S6 drivetrain. This is despite the different shapes, different tire sizes, and vehicle weights that vary by hundreds of pounds.
• The EPA rates the Prius and Prius Touring the same even though reports from magazine testing and our own members here on PriusChat show the Touring's wider and stickier tires reduce fuel economy.

3) Manufacturers sometimes build vehicles to the test:

• I personally believe that Ford increase the EV only speed of the Fusion in order to beat the Camry Hybrid's EPA numbers. The EPA rates the Fusion 8 mpg better than the Camry but none of the magazine tests have shown much of a difference in the real world.
• I'm also suspicious about catalytic convertor heating loop on the 2010 Prius. Yes, it may be their to help the Prius do better in cold weather climates. I suspect it is there to make the Prius warm up quicker and get better emissions and mpg numbers in EPA testing.

What does this all mean? To me it means I like to see EPA numbers, magazine numbers, database numbers (Your MPG, Green Hybrids, etc) and weigh. I value all of these sources of information.

 

2010 Prius options

I like the improvements that Toyota has done to the 2010 Prius & I plan on purchasing one in June of this year. I am not in the least impressed with their option packaging.

If I am going to spend in the neighborhood of $30,000 for a car I expect to get what I want. Example: Solar sunroof with led headlights & taillights. Not interested in the rest of the fluff that Toyota attaches with the led pkg. 17" wheel, lane assist etc.

Economic times are really tough now as we all know. Detroit especially & the auto industry as a whole. Prius sales for Jan 2009 were down 46% Toyota is in no position to antagonize their customers by refusing to give them what they ask for.

I am ready to put my money where my mouth is $ purchase a 2010 Prius. Toyota needs to revise their thinking & offer what the customer is asking for, otherwise I will not purchase a Toyota.

 

I had looked at the options and decided to go with the least expensive configuration because I don't need to buy 'fluff' or 'eye candy.' I can add my own, after market elements for a lot less and only those I want.

In a perfect world, Toyota would have a web page that would let me exactly configure the Prius I want. It would show the list price of each option and let me put down say "10%" of the purchase price to commit the order. Then as my vehicle is built, shipped and delivered, I would get a running stream of e-mails letting me know exactly where the car is. When it arrives at the dealer, I have 10 days to pay the balance and the car is mine. If it takes 3-6 months from start to delivery, that is fine by me.

Now this would also give Toyota direct feedback on what options are desired by their customers. I have no problem if the 'option price' changes depending upon which options are selected. As long as the web page is interactive so I get a firm, fixed price, I'm happy.

One other twist, let me choose where to pickup the car. I know in the Southeast we have 'problem dealers' whom I won't do business. I have no problem with driving or flying to a 'clueful' dealer. Heck, I wouldn't mind if the dealers even offered their 'dealer handling price' with the option of not offering it. Those who deal with me honestly get my business and the 'negotiable' ones can be avoided.

Bob Wilson

 

Both my Prius and FJ have the carbon deposit on the inside of the tailpipe. A neighbor with a two year old Honda Accord also has it. Another neighbor with a 2007 Chevy pickup has mild deposits.

The guy with the Chevy is most pissed off about it. He thought they had made real strides in cleaning up vehicles.

 

I sat in a Jetta TDI with leather seating just to experience some decent sit and let me tell you ....

The TDI driver's seat is very, very good.

To bad it's a sedan with less than stellar reliability that runs on pricier than premium diesel.

The rearview mirror is single jointed and not great for moving up and out of the way.

 

That was a pretty lame review. I don't like reviews that compare how cars handle in track conditions. Not a word about safety, warranties, or anything actually useful in every day life.

$30K for a Prius is a little high... the Prius site has starting at $22K right now posted and I bet you can get some pretty amazing deals with the crummy economy. Which reminds me...

The actual "Smart" choice is to ride the bus, bicycle and not purchase more cars. The average American spends far too much money ( ~9K) a year.

I expect a lot more reviews like this as companies just start to push the marketing departments to lie (more) and to push their inferior products to the market. If you are short on cash there should be plenty of used Prius' hitting the market. People who can afford a new Prius will most likely trade up as their warrenty's expire.

2009-2012 should have some really good automotive alternatives hitting the market but they won't be cheap. Ford and SmartCar are already predicting $30K price points on their EV's. And other hybrids will also have expensis.

Just remember, all of these car companies are in the business of selling Internal Combustion Engines. That is what they have always done and that is really all they know. They do not like alternative solutions.

 

I'm convinced that Edmunds is not a reliable source when they did a comparison test with the Honda Insight and Prius and Insight won. No way. I drove both of them

 

A bit defensive of the prius around here, aren't we? I have no trouble seeing how a Jetta might beat a prius at a car aficionado site. (I agree that the review itself was dreadful - what were they thinking to publish something so badly written and uninformative?)

I have a 9 year old Jetta (not diesel), so I am intimately acquainted with the pros and cons and several deep flaws of this car, at least in the older model. I am planning to replace it with a prius if I can find a way to deal with the poorly designed seats. I am not considering a Jetta TDI - I'm done with VW.

Honestly, guys? The prius is a bit of a disappointment. Even though I consider it to be the rational choice, it feels like a step down when I drive it. Don't get me wrong, I've had my heart set on a Prius for months now and I'm looking forward to walking away from my current maintenance headache. The prius is in many ways the better car. It's certainly the more sensible car. But I'm going to miss the more deeply satisfying Jetta.

 

That is all subject to personal opinion. I sold a 2000 Corvette for the Prius and the C5 Vette is much more of a "drivers" car, if you want to use "enthusiasts" jargon, than either the Prius or any version of the Jetta. Do I miss the vette or feel I've stepped down with the Prius? Nope. So again, it is all in your head and if you cannot wrap your head around the fact your are using less fuel and polluting less and gain enjoyment out of that then you will likely always miss your Jetta. The key is to accept new realities and finding enjoyment in different things comes easy.

 

You realize this is "PriusChat?"

You know some of us like blonds, some like brunets, and others red haired. We like some with breasts, hips, legs, or my favorite, a willing smile and bright mind. What this means is affection is not limited to one shape or style but rather it is individual taste. We like cars too but different from them.

Freedom means choosing the vehicle that matches our expectations and if others want "noise," good on them. I wish them well and well away from me.

Bob Wilson

 

Um, well, I miss my 2001 C5 M6 Z51

 

Bah! Drive it again for a few weeks and you'll come crying back to your Prius. It is like a hot EX. You remember the good times and conveniently forget about the bad times.

 

Greeting to all. I test drove the Prius and Jetta today. I haven't purchased yet, but I really don't know how anyone can compare the Pruis to the Jetta. The Jetta ride was amazing. The get-up-and-go was impressive, and the handling was terrific. The blind loyalty to the battery operated cars amazes me. Why anyone would pay an extra 8k for them just doesn’t add up. Are there any other objective opinions that would motivate me to drop an additional 8k for something that gets worse mileage and is more complicated?

Thanks for great info!

-North