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Betelgeuse, Betelgeuse, Betelgeuse... may be getting closer to Supernova...

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by amm0bob, Jun 11, 2009.

  1. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    Nearby Star May Be Getting Ready to Explode - Science News | Science & Technology | Technology News - FOXNews.com

    With all the "prophets of the past" saying that the end-of-times is near, is this the big bang that does us in...

    After all... 2012 ain't that far off is it...
     
  2. MarinJohn

    MarinJohn Senior Member

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  3. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    A gamma ray pulse would be cool
     
  4. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

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    "is this the big bang that does us in...'
    Ahh, one of my favorite stars from back in my gazing days! How exactly would this have any effect on us other than an interesting visual show for us to watch?

    I'm most surprised that Fox has a science section to even report this! I didn't think Fox was into that kind of stuff!
     
  5. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

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    Sorry Dude, no GRB for you...

    Betelgeuse's fate

    It is likely that Betelgeuse will become a supernova. Considering its size and age of 8.5 million years – old for its size class – it may explode within the next thousand years—if it hasn't already. Since its rotational axis is not toward the Earth, Betelgeuse's supernova would not cause a gamma ray burst in the direction of Earth large enough to damage its ecosystem even from a relatively close proximity of 520 light years.
    A Betelgeuse supernova could easily outshine the moon in the night sky. It will likely be the brightest supernova in recorded Human history, easily outshining SN 1006. After it explodes, it will likely linger for several months, being visible in the daytime sky and lighting up nighttime skies in the Solar System for a long time, after which the "right shoulder" of Orion will disappear forever.
    Reported on June 9, 2009, the star has shrunk 15% in the last 15 years. This means the average speed in which the radius of the star is shrinking, over the last 15 years is approximately 470-490 miles per hour. The rate that it has been decreasing in size has accelerated. Though the data is inconclusive, major news media have been reporting that this data could presage a Supernova[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernova"][/ame].

    Well...so much for GRB, in fact since we are approx 640 light yeas away, unless it blew 639.9999 years ago I won't be holding my breath for the fireworks...

    I do like the 12/21/2012 idea however!!!

    I'll get back to everyone on 12/22/2012 with more info!!!:eek:

    Thank You Wikipedia
     
  6. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    A couple of my friends and I have a bet going that when it does go nova, it will be the second brightest light in the sky...

    If that's true, then the ecosystems of Terra WILL be impacted... if not, then we may not feel or see anything other than a little extra night light/day star and the loss of a part one of the aids to navigation man has used for thousands of years.
     
  7. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    Just for the sake of discussion, what could it mean if Earth were to be
    bombarded by :flame:gamma rays? :noidea:
     
  8. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

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    Well lets play "Mr Wizard"

    Everyone go to the refrigerator, grab a hot dog, put it in a paper plate, place in the Microwave, set to HI for 5 minutes, press COOK!

    Any more questions?
     
  9. kenmce

    kenmce High Voltage Member

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    Your car would throw error codes never before seen by the eyes of man.
     
  10. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

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    And quite possibly the last thing to be seen by man, or any other organic life on this rock!!!

    A gamma-ray burst in the Milky Way, if close enough to Earth and beamed towards it, could have significant effects on the biosphere[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biosphere"][/ame]. The absorption of radiation in the atmosphere would cause photodissociaton of nitrogen, generating nitric oxide that would act as a catalyst to destroy ozone. According to a 2004 study, a GRB at a distance of about a kiloparsec could destroy up to half of Earth's ozone layer; the direct UV irradiation from the burst combined with additional solar UV radiation passing through the diminished ozone layer could then have potentially significant impacts on the food chain and potentially trigger a mass extinction.
     
  11. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    I take it that neither nor both:
    * a liberal dosing in SPF 60 (or mustard) or
    * a tin foil hat
    will have any salutary prophylactic effect.
     
  12. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    :rapture:


    Also I read somewhere that the upper atmosphere would be severely impacted and that the particles would be able to kill most life in the air, on the ground and up to a certain depth under the seas... the great sterilizer.
     
  13. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    How likely is it that a star we cannot see would super-nova and douse us in a gamma ray burst? Would any candidate extinction-level star (i.e. close enough to us and in condition to become a super-nova) be on the star charts, making itself known, as Betelgeuse is showing us its potential to pop?
     
  14. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    Additionally... a supernova will influence the orbits of most if not all of the things around Sol...

    That means an increased chance of an asteroid or comet impacting us years after the event.
     
  15. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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    I'll keep my eyes out for that.


    What are the odds that it's already gone super? It might have gone super years ago.
     
  16. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    I believe it already has... we're just waiting for the light to get here.
     
  17. Betelgeuse

    Betelgeuse Active Member

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    I feel the need to address some of the stuff here, both as an astronomer and to protect the reputation of my namesake.

    It's extremely unlikely that an unknown star would affect life on earth. In general, the types of stars that may affect us are the things that are close by and big/massive. Those tend to be quite bright in our sky. There are several stars on the "watch list" right now, including Betelgeuse and a really cool star called V838 Monocerotis.

    Betelgeuse is way too distant to affect the orbits of anything in our solar system. The only thing that we would have to legitimately worry about is if it's axis were pointed at us and we got hit by a gamma ray burst. Even then, that wouldn't affect the orbits of the bodies in the solar system, but it could fry the atmosphere and destroy life on earth that way. Even if the nearest sizable star (Alpha Centauri) went supernova, that likely wouldn't affect Earth significantly. Of course, Alpha Cen isn't going to go supernova, anyway.

    No one really knows. Stellar evolution models are considered super-accurate if they can estimate timescales to with 1000 years. And, to be honest, we really don't have any good models for the end of life of massive stars. That big star I mentioned earlier (V838 Mon) is violating all sorts of things that we "knew" about the evolution of massive stars.

    There's no way to know. Since the uncertainty in stellar evolution timescales is longer than the light travel time, it's anyone's guess.
     
  18. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    When two events are so far apart and so near in time that light from one cannot reach the other, then it's not actually meaningful to say that one has happened before the other. Therefore we cannot assert that "perhaps" Betelgeuse has "already" popped. There would be some frame of reference within which it had not "already" popped.

    Only once the light reaches us can we say categorically that the event has happened.
     
  19. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    Betelgeuse... I was hoping you were gonna show up Bra... I'm glad you did.

    I know I know... or you'll go all supernova on us, Huh Bra...

    Unlikely, yea... impossible... no.

    And I read about the other one a couple of months back... I think you may be right that it may be the first one we will see go nova from direct observation... if we can continue funding the instruments and studies.

    While I don't agree with the beginning of your assessment, I do believe there is enough data to prove your second (primarily due to my readings about prehistoric life and the evidence of gamma ray/cosmic ray/heavy particle impacts recorded in lab experiments and on ice age animals skeletal structures and soft tissues recovered and inspected) but, I must say I am merely an amateur stargazer/astronomer with a 6" and a 4 1/2", that has read about and subscribes to stuff to tell me about the cosmos... It ain't my job.

    Your third part is like the first, not enough data to be sure... especially out in the Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt region that has less influence from the winds of Sol and could be "bumped" more easily by a supernova's clap of ages... especially if it happens from an unusual star... which you must agree, Betelgeuse is truly unusual. Not you Bra... the super-star.

    As for Alpha Centauri, it is close enough... isn't it like 4-5 ly away... that's back yard stuff in Supernova speak. Looking at the structures from prior supernovi and the areas they impact and influence are much larger than that little interstellar distance to our nearest neighbor... but in reality, you are correct, it isn't anywhere near ready to go boom yet... mankind will be extinct long before that star impacts life here.

    Stellar evolution models are good guesses, but let's be honest here Bra... it IS a guess, using good math, but nevertheless, it is a guess... because we have no direct observations to prove the theory... only some speculation about some stars we are seeing wobble oddly now, and the clouds of destruction from stars that went nova before we had tools to see them properly. And like you said, because we have some nice tools today, we are seeing some stars that aren't acting as the numbers would predict... which I think has to do with what was in the soup before it collapsed into the star, but that is just my opinion, and guess, since I don't have any direct observations either, is just as worthy as any other guess without proof.

    Well... I think we could find out... and that's because there's lots and lots of stars... and we're making more of the tools to look up into the heavens to watch what creation is doing... if we keep looking (and I'm saying this with my govt auditor voice) we may find the oddity because of statistical probability (just as I do when shooting in the dark in the records of govt looking for the indicators of fraud and abuse), at least... I know that if we keep looking (and funding that observation, cause let's be realistic Bra, it IS all about the coins), we WILL see something to bring us closer to the truth of what happens in the observations... and that/those truths of observation will let us know what will happen if a similar thing is gonna happen again sometime in the future.
     
  20. Betelgeuse

    Betelgeuse Active Member

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    Just because we don't have any knowledge of it, doesn't mean that it hasn't already happened. It's just that we can't say that it happened until after we observe it. So, if astronomers observe a supernova in 600 years, than they'll know that it went off about now. On the other hand, since we're observing these changes now, it means that the changes actually happened about 600 years ago. Will these changes lead to a supernova in short order? We'll just have to wait and see.