HWY MPG for the 2010 Prius. PLEASE HELP!

OK. I own a 2003 TDI and a 2005 Prius. A good friend owns a 2006 TDI and I have driven it and the new 2009 TDI DSG.

You can't run a 2009 TDI on biofuel or straight vegetable oil because of the DPF and NOx catalyst. This removes any chance that the TDI would have a lower carbon footprint than the Prius.

The TDI will cost 50% more for the scheduled maintenance even if we assume the battery in the Prius gets replaced at 250K miles. (See my post on tdiclub.com for details TDIClub Forums - View Single Post - Diesel vs. Hybrid )

Diesel fuel only dipped below the price of regular in the last month and this is a normal part of the seasonal difference. Over the last 15 years the national average for diesel fuel has been $0.03 per gallon more than 87 octane gasoline. ($0.07 a gallon more over the last 5 years)

The VW Jetta TDI is a nice car and I prefer it to the Prius. However, you are just kidding yourself it you expect it to cost less to own over the life of the vehicle.

 

+1. I smell a wolf under sheep skin.

 

They compared 2007 Prius to a much smaller VW Polo Blue Motion and stated that Polo got 74.3 MPG. PM's own review of 2008 Polo Blue Motion said the real world fuel economy is 46 MPG for 5 speed manual. Prius is automatic.

Also note it's performance: 12.8 seconds for a 0-62

 

All was good until....

This impression on the hybrid batteries was a serious concern back in the early years. Since then with nearly 1.5 million of these on the roads all over the world there is now a solid history about the batteries.

There is no need to replace the hybrid battery pack - EVER.

Simply put they don't deteriorate through normal usage. It doesn't matter how far you drive on a daily basis there is very little wear and tear on the hybrid battery pack. I underlined need because an occasional manufacturing defect or owner problem may cause problems with the battery. But these are extremely rare.

Toyota's statement on this subject is that they have replaced 0.0025% ( 1 in 40,000 units ) of the batteries. In effect it's a non-issue. No one actually has found the upper range of time or mileage where the batteries begin to falter. 250K or 350K or 500K miles???? No one has found that limit yet. What's certain is that 200K to 300K is certainly to be expected. That would be 10 yrs of driving at your current rate.

With the new 1.8L engine you will likely find FE ratings in the high 40 mpg range if not 50+ mpg. Today in my 05 with 115,000 miles at 80-ish I will get 41-43 mpg. The new 1.8L will improve this number significantly. Results to follow as more of the 10s begin to hit the roads.

 

#4. Again this is an error. If you base your decision on this fact and this cost then you are simply making an erroneous decision.

#7. This is just false or at best cherry-picked data. The EPA website shows the 2010 Prius to have a petroleum usage of 40% less then the Jetta Sportswagon ( apples to apples ). In addition the CO2 emissions are also 40% less. There is no basis in fact for the statement that the Jetta is 'greener' than the Prius.

You may have a preference for the TDi but do it on personal preferences not on 'specious facts' or guesses or misinformation.

 

No Prob... customer service.

 

Off the dealer lot, I would expect about 45 MPG.
There are some modifications that may improve that numbers but I'd like to test the standard mods first.

Bob Wilson

 

EPA test cold start and A/C usage as well. Prius has refined technology to lower the MPG impact, such as electric A/C and Exhaust Heat Recovery. You need to compare all year round MPG average. Just not highway miles in the Spring.

 

Maybe you misunderstood the point of my statement. I was pointing out the potential technology in the Prius ... that is not even in other hybrids (Insight or Fusion hybrid). We have yet to see the real world MPG in extreme weather all year round.

For sure, I am not a fan of VW based on my experience with my father-in-law's 04 New Beetle.

 

Have you worked out yet IndyKing, there is a good reason we love our Prius and there has to be a reason you're on a Prius fan site. I think secretly you love them too!

Sorry, no facts in this post, just personal observation. At least I didn't post what looks like a magazine article.

Another observation, your signature says you own a 2010 Prius model III, is that true or does that observation further deminish your credability? Or do you include yourself in your observations about Prius owners?

Smells like, ummm?

 

I have no interest in attacking the TDI (if it is your car of choice, fine by me), and others have weighed in on some of your Prius 'facts'. Here are some more:

1. The reason most vehicles in Europe are diesel is because diesel has a lower tax rate, gasoline is MUCH more expensive. AND the diesels get much better mileage than 'regular' gas engine cars. Gas averaged $8.70/US gallon in the last few weeks, diesel averaged $5.97. Let's see, a gas car gets 25 MPG, diesel gets 40 MPG, 1000 miles in each costs: Gas: 40 gallons, $348, diesel: 25 gallons, $149.25. Why do you think are diesels in Europe are more popular again?
2. Why do you think the gas engine in the Prius will end it's life? Consider two things:
   1. The ICE is not running for all of those lifetime miles and is not running for ANY the 'non miles' at red lights. Engine hours for 100K miles in a Prius is WAY lower than 100K miles in a TDI.
   2. Unlike any non Toyota or Ford Hybrid, all ICE based vehicles get most of their wear when the engine is started cold and warming up. The Toyota and (I presume) Ford hybrids use the electric motor to take most of the load off the gas engine until it has warmed up (unless you hit the Interstate before then). In any case, the time of most engine wear that you are familiar with is NOT a high wear time in the Prius. The ICE in the Prius should last a lot longer than gas engines in other cars.
3. As of a couple of months ago, there were 10K Prii sold in Australia. 2 have had their batteries replaced. Both taxis, one at 350K kilometers (218,000 miles) and one at 500K kilometers (310,000 miles). I think the battery issue is a NON issue.
4. I second the comment about Edmunds maintenance/repair numbers in the TCO charts for the Prius being bogus. They claim $2,534 for 5 years. In 5 years (92K miles) I have had ZERO repairs and maintenance has consisted solely of 13 oil and filter changes. And one alignment the dealer did as part of THEIR regular maintenance 'program'. Wasn't needed and isn't specified in the Prius service manual. Brakes pads still have 60% or more wear left on them. My wife's 2006 is no different, oil and filters only (and NO unneeded 'additional dealer profit' alignment). Oops. Forgot I replaced the 12V battery and HID bulbs (aftermarket 2 for $70, installation FREE - easy to do by yourself) in the '04. Not a good idea to use the HIDs for DRLs. I REALLY wish Toyota would put DRLs on the U.S. cars like they do on the Canadian cars.

Maybe YOU drive more in the summer, I am very boring and drive about the same per month year round

 

Diesel is more popular in Europe because the fuel is cheaper due to government tax. In the EU fuel economy test, only tiny Diesel cars can reach Prius MPG.

Some Diesel emission solution requires the owner to become part of the emission control system. With regular maintenance schedule to refill urea, it depends on the driver's action for the emission to be under control.

The cleanest Diesel are in the same group (LEV) as dirtiest gasoline non-hybrid car. Prius is two class above that with SULEV. Assuming you care zilch about emission, consider this safety feature. You can not commit suicide with Prius in the garage because it does not emit enough CO2 to kill.

I think Prius buyers are very smart, well educated and they are very careful with their money. I am sure they do their homework very well. Prius buyers are leaders... independent thinkers, broke away from conventional thinkings or traditional ways... who believes in synergy between two power sources are better than a single engine solution. At least that's just my intrepetation...

 

In the worst possible scenario for Prius, namely illegally driving 80 mph almost exclusively, the Prius is only slightly more efficient than the TDI. In legal driving, Prius' advantage only increases. Every time you find yourself in traffic, the tie is broken in favor of Prius.

I drove a 09 TDI Wagon yesterday. Liked it more than expected. My dealer wants 4 to 5 THOUSAND dollars ABOVE MSRP for it. Not happening.

Prius, HCH, and TDI are all very good choices for a highway driver, as are cheaper alternatives like the Fit and Yaris for less up front cost.

OP, forgive this community for being a little sensitive on the "x is greener than a Prius" front. The refrain grows tired quickly as science does not support such assertions.

 

This response initially seemed an aberration, so I thought I'd just let it lay. Given your later attacks on me and others, I've changed my mind.

You started a thread with what sounded like a genuine request for information. As I am one of only a handful of people who have any real-life experience driving a 2010 Prius, I was very pleased to offer my knowledge and opinion.

You obviously saw the qualifications I added, more than once, to my statements: I haven't driven the 2009 Jetta TDI, and I'm a Prius lover. This was intended to fully inform you of any bias I might have. If you read what I've written, I haven't compared the Jetta TDI and the 2010 Prius in any way or form that would need comparable driving experience. In fact, I pointed out that I would need to accept your statements -- precisely because of my lack of a point of reference.

The comparisons I do make of the Jetta TDI and the 2010 Prius are based either on review of publicly-available data (EPA mileage and interior space) or on personal opinion. For the latter, I don't see how I could have made myself any clearer that it was my own opinion informing me. And for this we're talking about looks! And you find fault with this?

Perhaps you are simply offended that I've pointed out errors in data you cite or that your facts are not fully correct or that your argument(s) lack stated support? I asked you more than one question designed at getting at information that should help me provide you with better answers or allow you to decide whether the 2010 Prius would provide the features and performance you might like. Perhaps answering the questions and entering into dialogue would have been more helpful than squealing about the apparently-revolting idea that I could be of any help even though I haven't driven a Jetta TDI.

Whatever the reason or the story, if you remain interesting in gathering real information about the 2010 Prius in daily use, then please re-read my post, see if you have any answers for my questions, and then post them. I'll be glad to respond, as helpfully as I may.

 

Are you serious? You ask for information about the 2010 Prius from real owners, and then you complain that you are being fed unrealiable information by . . . by . . . Prius owners? If I test drive is all the qualification needed, then why ask questions? You've test driven both. For what it is worth, please look to my prior post about what "comparisons" were actually made. We'll deal with the trust issue later.

I'll remember that.

If I could determine the intent of your literary devices, I'd be pleased to respond. I understand you test drove a 2010 Prius (though you haven't answered which model and whether you tried the various driving modes) and enjoyed it. You then test drove a 2009 Jetta TDI and went bonkers for it. Then you came to this site and asked for help in determining real highway mileage for the 2010 Prius. You then went ballistic when you didn't like the answers.

I read the article. Here are a couple of interesting statements in the Popular Mechanics write-up:

To see how hybrids compare to their diesel-powered cousins, we pit Europe’s version of the Toyota Prius against the efficient Volkswagen Polo BlueMotion 1, currently only available overseas, in a war of numbers. The Polo is lighter (it weighs almost 500 pounds less) and somewhat smaller, so we expected it to be more fuel efficient. However, we didn’t think it would go 38 percent farther on a gallon of fuel or emit 5 percent fewer greenhouse gases per mile. (We didn’t look at particulates or NOx emissions.) While hybrids might be the green champions, clean diesels can be just as friendly to the environment—possibly even friendlier.

Sadly, the real fuel misers of the diesel world—inexpensive three- and four-cylinder wonders like the Volkswagen Polo on our cover, which gets 74.3 mpg—probably aren’t coming to the U.S. anytime soon. Right now, even the best of these European diesels don’t meet the emissions standards in the five states that follow California clean-air regulations. So far, manufacturers have been mum about whether they will modify these vehicles to take advantage of ULSD-ready emissions controls.
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OK. The article doesn't mention the Jetta TDI, nor the U.S. Prius, just the VW Polo that won't come to the U.S., but . . . Still, it does talk about emissions. You're right, though, that emissions is not all about greenhouse gases. It includes such things as noxious gases and particulate matter. Hmm. Just the things that are found in emissions from Diesel engines, Non?

More from Popular Mechanics about "cheap" Diesel fuel:

Further down the line, diesel could lose some of its allure if the price jumps. Diesel and gasoline prices have been neck and neck in recent years, normally staying within about 20 cents of each other. However, “Diesel use has been growing for several years, and there’s no guarantee it couldn’t become more expensive than gasoline,†says Jeff Hazle, technical director of the National Petrochemical & Refiners Association. Federal renewable-fuel policy is one factor that seems destined to push diesel prices higher. If so, it will be an unintended consequence of legislation that aims to raise production of ethanol from 4.7 billion gallons in 2007 to 7.5 billion in 2012. That’s because the machinery required to grow and harvest the corn that’s made into ethanol runs on … you guessed it, diesel. “I wouldn’t go so far as to predict shortages,†Hazle says. “But I can’t say it’s going to be a cheap fuel.â€
​

Oops.

And "Cleaner"? The article points out that in the 1970s the introduction of unleaded gasoline and better engines reduced emissions from gas-powered cars by 98 to 99 percent. The use of Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel, combined with the very expensive Mercedes Blu Tec engine reduces 80 to 90 percent of the noxious gases. Big improvement for Diesel engines, but "cleaner" than cars burning E10?

Fine. Shall I ask for a show of hands?

Did you mean to link to this article?: "2009 Jetta TDI - Hybrid Shmybrid. . The TDI offers more bang for your buck." The article written in December 2008? Written by a Jetta TDI owner? The article with the "Cons" statement: "Price is a little steep compared to competition."? That says the Bottom Line is: "The TDI is powerful, solid, fun to drive, and offers a high quality interior that makes its 22K base price tag a downright bargain." That article?

You've referenced this article as the document where I am to find "information explaining why the Jetta TDI is a much better value than the Prius."

First, it would have been just a bit more forthright had you noted that the article was written and published nearly one month before the 2010 Prius was even introduced to the press.

Second, in reading the article, I find NOT ONE statement that the Jetta TDI is a much better value than the Prius. Not even a statement that it is a better value than the Prius. In fact, no "value" statements involving the Prius, whatsoever. The author felt the Jetta TDI was faster and quicker to drive than the Prius or the Civic Hybrid. I remind you, once again, that this comparison was made between the 2009 Jetta TDI and the Gen2 (2004-2009) Prius. NOT the 2010 Prius.

Third, I did learn, at least, that the 2009 Jetta TDI was pretty large for a compact car. Nearly as big as a mid-size. Yes, the 2010 Prius is a mid-size car -- as was the Gen2.

Fourth, I've spent way to much time dealing with this request, though I am content, at least, to find out your intent and statements have not been as genuine as advertised and that I can offer some interesting reading material to the two or three people with the time and temerity to read this far.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. You've read the two articles noted above, plus many others. You've talked with lots of folks and you've read through threads on PriusChat and other sites. You've test driven both the 2009 Jetta TDI and the 2010 Prius. You've stated your initial objective was the find a car with good highway mileage that was pleasant to drive. You have done all of this and come to the conclusion that the car for you is the 2009 Jetta TDI.

OK. As I've said before, to each his or her own. I hope the Jetta is everything you hope and expect it is -- and more.

But whatever you do, do not suggest to anyone else that you somehow have found the gnostic truth that the 2009 Jetta TDI is somehow "cleaner, safer, cheaper, and greener than the 2010 Prius." Nothing in your sources suggests any one of these is the truth. Both of the cars are cleaner, safer and greener than most any of the other cars available for purchase. Cheaper? Better value? Well, let's just hope both cars are reliable and don't break down. You have your choice and I have mine.

Speaking of your choice and mine, it appears, after all, that the cleaner, safer, cheaper, greener doesn't matter that much, it is "most importatly, deliver the pleasure of driving" that matters to you and (apparently) not to me.

Fine with me. Zoom, zoom, zoom. Then comeback and tell me your real mileage (every day, every activity) and how your real emissions and fuel usage are just as good as the Prius and haven't caused you to visit the VW garage. I'll keep posting my paltry mileage and talking about unpleasant it is to drive around in my putzy little 2010 Prius.