Acquiring a 2010 Prius

Dealer usually charges people $200 to take the car through Reno to avoid the sales tax for Oregon residents but he will split the charge and only charge me $100 plus pick me up at the airport. That is fair.

 

Ok but why not compare the Prius to other hybrids? Here is a list.
Hybrid Cars List | List of Hybrid Cars | Hybrid Cars

The Prius is the car that everyone compares to. I currently own a 2009 Honda Fit Sport Auto. I've driven enough older Priuses. They are worlds apart. Yes, if you just want to save money in the cheapest way possible you can buy a Yaris or a Civic LX bothe get real world economy better than a Fit and cost less. But let's say you want to compare to a differnt Hybrid like a Tahoe or something. Pretty hard to justify some cars based on price alone. The Prius offers a decent drive along with it's fuel economy. If it's all about the numbers then it's even tougher to justify a car versus a motorcycle. I drove an Insight for about 40 miles. City, Suburban and highway. I was unimpressed and with dealer markup I could have bought a 2009 Prius Pkg 2 for $500 more.
When you compare a $12,500 Yaris vs a $17,000 Honda Fit it's also difficult to justify the price difference. That $4,500 will buy a lot of gas. See where I'm going with this?
Try driving a Yaris as your primary car everyday vs the Fit or Civic and all of a sudden you see where the extra money went.
So if you kust want to save money, buy a very cheap new car the Nissan Versa can be had for about $9,000! That $3,500 will also buy a lot of gas.
I'll be happier driving a Prius over those others especially on long trips.

 

I see your point (which I think is "If I expect to get more, I should expect to pay more") and agree to some extent, but it's a matter of degree. I'm being asked to pay TOO MUCH MORE for TOO LITTLE increased utility.

The Toyota sales manager yesterday asked me "Why do I want to buy the Prius, to save money, right?", which I thought was laughably ironic considering that with the dealer markup and forced options purchases I most certainly would NOT be saving money over other available alternatives.

I test drove the Insight yesterday and will return next week to test the Fit to see how comparable they are, from my experience driving the Insight (it was shockingly sluggish imho), I am expecting the Fit to be quite comparable based on engine specs and trim levels on the Honda site.

 

That's true a Hybrid is not purchased for fuel economy alone although the gas savings does add up over time. Look at all the cars you can buy for about $23K Might as well compare a Prius II since for a base model it's well equipped.
Lots of gas cars you can buy for that money. To my way of thinking you need to compare cars in the same price range.
You could buy an SUV, a sports car, an economy car etc... for that kind of money. But to compare it to say a new $45K BMW is unfair. I looked at all the cars I could be interested in and put a cap of $26K on the car. I looked at the Subaru WRX, Mini Cooper S, and a host of other cars all online before I drove anything.
In the end if I compare it to the above examples. The Prius comes out ahead overall for my current needs.
That doesn't make the other cars bad, just less desireable for my particular needs. Add $5+K onto the Prius IV or V and then I couldn't justify the Prius.
That said I have a Fit and my wife loves it, it's small enough to park easily, it's requires very little maintainance and goes through the snow like it had snow tires and we get 34-36 mpg combined. We drove a lot of cars to compare it to as well all in the same class Versa, Scion xD, Yaris, Civic LX, etc...
Honestly after driving the Insight I'd buy the Fit again over the Insight. The Fit is more fun with a manula but my wife can only drive auto.
Of course you could buy a 2009 Prius and get a fantastic deal on one. Probably like $20K or less for a pkg 2.

 

For those of you who haven't already read it, it might interest you to know that the 2009 Prius Touring got the highest "bang for the buck" score of all vehicles from Consumer Reports. The 2010 wasn't available for scoring, but I expect it would surpass the 2009. Their cost of ownership includes depreciation, fuel economy, insurance, interest on financing, maintenance and repair, and sales tax. They also took into account road test scores and predicted reliability.

Here's the report:
New car value: Learn which models offer the most

 

That is interesting, there must be considerable subjectivity in the scores (I don't subscribe to Consumer Reports so I only read the summary and their cost-of-ownership methodology page), since the Honda Fit that I mentioned above had a significantly lower cost-of-ownership than the Prius but they still somehow scored Prius #1. They also used a very high gasoline cost estimate from June 2008 that maximizes the Prius' mpg advantage, as we all know gas is much cheaper right now, so if the scores were re-computed with current numbers the ratings might be different.

Also they appear to use a vastly lower number for sales tax than applies in California (4.9%! I wish!), and they don't consider ongoing annual registration fees which are sky-high in California and going higher, these are calculated as a percentage of vehicle value so vehicles with lower purchase prices save again here.

 

From What that car really costs to own, Most and least expensive to own (posted August 08), the Prius base is under the least expensive to own column at $28,750 (presumably computed using the $4/gal figure).

New car value: Learn which models offer the most pegs the Prius Touring at $26,250 and that article talks about $2/gal for gas. I think they did recompute.

(You might need a subscription to read some of the URLs).

 

Go to another dealer. With the terrible economy, terrible US and worldwide auto sales (By The Numbers — Autoblog), Toyota having just reported a $7.7 billion loss last quarter (Toyota suffers stunning annual net loss -- its first since 1950 - Los Angeles Times) I think you'll be able find a 2010 Prius for MSRP w/o extra crap once the early adopters have gotten theirs and a get substantial discount on leftover 09s.

Sorry, but I think you've really just cherry picked numbers to make the Prius come out badly esp. when equipping w/the Prius w/nav and 17 inch wheels. Many hear on Priuschat already complain that it already isn't an apples to apples comparison to compare a Prius to Corolla and that it should really be compared to a Camry due to its size being in between the two. Comparing it to a Fit is pretty far off, esp. when loaded down w/tons of options. Besides, the Prius being a large vehicle inside and out, there are lots of features that are standard or optional on the Prius that don't exist on the Fit.

I think the $2.25/gal average for gas is too low as well. I'm unfamiliar w/Oakley, but AAA Fuel Gauge Report says the average in Oakland, CA is $2.417 right now. Don't you think the prices will head back up once the economy recovers?

There's more to ownership costs than just gas prices. If you want to look at another source go to Intellichoice and look at their calculated 5 year ownership costs. Here's what I got when I compared these cars:
2009 Honda Fit auto: $24,488
2009 Toyota Prius 4 dr hatchback: $25,366
2009 Toyota Prius Standard: $24,535

BTW, did you know that there are many documented cases here of Prius owners still being on the original front brake pads at 100K miles? Regenerative braking really helps cut down on wear on the friction brakes.

If you really want to compare the $22,000 2010 Prius II vs. the 2010 Insight, you should really be comparing the $21,300 Insight EX (LX is so stripped down it has no cruise control, no stability control, no center console w/armrest, no map lights, and steel wheels).

For $700 more, you're getting 9 mpg more, 36 more hp, a more advanced hybrid system, a larger car inside and out, touch tracer controls, smart key system, 4 wheel disc brakes (rears on Insight are drums), electric AC (AC compressor can run w/o running the gas engine), and no belts (1 less thing to break),

One rant many hybrid fans have is why does it always have to be about "saving money"? How much money does a V8 engine or a sunroof save? They don't save any money. What's the premium and payback period on a BMW?

What's wrong w/buying a vehicle that emits less pollutants, fewer greenhouses gases, uses less of a non-renewable resource of which the US imports 60% and where much of the reserves lie in unstable regions or ones that don't like us much, and one that recaptures and repurposes some energy that would otherwise become useless heat and brake dust?

OT, since you seem to be into comparing random vehicles, how about the Altima Hybrid? My mom's got one. It's got 198 hp combined (feels like night and day vs. the my 06 Prius), has a $2350 federal tax credit, got better overall mileage than the Fit auto in CR testing (Most fuel-efficient cars - the Fit auto isn't in the top 13 list, it got 21 city/39 highway, 30 combined). I also see a $2000 incentive at Nissan Regional Offers - Nissan USA Official Site. Even if you were to get ripped off and pay MSRP - incentive, that would take your before tax price down to ~$22,300. I'm positive you'll be able to do way better than MSRP now as dealers couldn't even fetch that back in Feb 08, when the economy was better.

 

Well said and I would add that reducing the hassle of constantly going to the gas station to fill up as another factor.

Just my 2 cents

 

Safety is always a priority for me when I buy a car. I balance this into my choice, weighing price, fuel economy, crash worthiness, safety features, comfort, and resale value. This is why the Fit would never make it into my final list.

 

Don't get me wrong: I think the Fit is a good car, and one I considered buying as well. And in the Consumer Reports evaluation, it did indeed have a lower 5-year cost. But it scored lower in predicted reliability and on the road test, which brought it's "bang for buck" score down considerably from the Prius Touring.

And yes, there is some subjectivity involved, and even the objective factors like price of gas are a moving target. My point in citing the "bang for buck" report is that you can actually make a good case for the Prius being an excellent value for the price.

 

I explained earlier why I was comparing the Prius V with nav to the Insight without nav, what I wanted to buy was the Prius V with no extra options, and I was willing to pay $27K and change as mentioned on the Toyota web site. I am not totally price sensitive as my package selection should indicate. I believe the 2010 Prius as I configured it is a better car overall than the Insight and Fit and I would rather choose it over those. However when the real price of the car turns out to be $33K, which is getting into luxury car territory, the numbers just don't make sense. And the Insight/Fit do have a few things the 2010 Prius doesn't, like a USB plug for iPod, which my Toyota salesman helpfully mentioned he could have installed for $600 in my Prius.

Ideally I would love to not ever buy another internal-combustion engine, I'm all for energy independence and cleaner air. I would buy an electric car right now if it was practical, but unfortunately for now we are stuck with these hybrids that apparently can't be manufactured for costs that make sense.

 

Yep, $33K is luxury car territory. But, no US luxury cars get 50 mpg combined. I doubt that any $33K luxury cars come w/LED headlights, nav, dynamic radar cruise control, lane keep assist and intelligent parking assist. (I'm not saying I would pay that much for a Prius. If I were in the market, I'd get II or III.) As for the $3K "Kar Kare" package, find another dealer.

So, you're ok with a really inflated $27K that would also have a terrible "payback" period when compared to lightly equipped Insights and Fits while using only (a too low) gas price as your basis for TCO?

Hopefully someone here can/already has answered whether any Prius V w/o optional equipment will be built. If so, you could get a dealer trade.

 

You can get the NAV option on the Prius III and Prius IV 2010 packages. You are not forced to take the V to get NAV. Alternatively, you can purchase a Garmin GPS that has more technology and has integrated bluetooth among it's features for about 10% of the cost of the Toyota Nav. It is entirely possible to keep the cost of a 2010 Prius down to $23K. I'm not sure why you're using the Package V as your comparable. What other features are you wanting that requires a Pkg V?

 

Touché. I wouldn't say I'm thrilled to pay $27K no (since even at that price the gas savings are debatable), and you are correct in pointing out the inconsistency in my complaint. My automotive history is with powerful sports coupes (Currently 2006 Infiniti G35 Coupe), hybrids are such a step down performance wise that I was hoping to get the most performance-oriented Prius to minimize the impact, that is something I'm willing to pay for. I didn't ask but I assume the $3000 markup applies to all 2010 Prius models, not just the V so no 2010 Prius is a good deal right now.

The Insight has no performance options so all I can do is compare to the more loaded Insight which isn't very loaded. The Fit at least has a Sport model with 16" wheels.

Unfortunately compromise is the order of the day here, either on performance or cost, probably some degree of both. A $35,000 pure electric with 0-60 in 5 seconds and 200 mile range isn't happening this year.

 

Yes, exactly, I use a Garmin GPS in my current car, I can just bring it over to my new car, it isn't as nice as the built-in units but for zero new cost I can deal with that. Vehicle-based computer-assisted navigation should be an option that costs a few hundred dollars, not a few thousand dollars, the fact that they're so interested in selling them shows how overpriced they are.

Since I am used to driving relatively powerful cars, I am biased towards the most performance-oriented Prius, the V package. Yes it costs more, but I'm willing to pay more to get something a little closer to what I would be happy with. Unfortunately this option-bundling policy they have hides the true cost of getting the V package.

 

Keep in mind that many of the people on these forums are salespeople for competitors. If Batty were a real car buyer and motivated enough to write so much on a Toyota Prius forum, he would have been smart enough to find a dealer who would sell him a Prius without a markup. The internet is a wonderful thing but you do have to be careful separate real information from fakes.

 

Lol, sir, I guarantee you that I am not a car salesman, I am a computer programmer with a brand new 60-mile one-way commute to Silicon Valley from the exurb of Oakley, California. My motivation in posting here is not to sell you a car but to hopefully be proven wrong in my conclusion that I reached this weekend that there is no hybrid vehicle that meets my needs and wants.

 

I understand that in Sept the Prius will have USB connectivity.:mod: