So the ICE in the IMA has no idle control? So every time your foot is not on the accelerator the ICE receives no gas, but continues to spin (except for the times you noted when even the spin is gone)? Is there any warm-up required to get the engine to a specified temperature before it will go into the idle-stop mode, or does it just stop idling at all times there is no accelerator involved?.
This is a nice informative thread. Thanks to everyone for keeping it energized, but civil. I'm currently considering both cars, but I'm waiting (at least) for pricing on the 2010 Prius to decide. I think if prices are similar, I will go for the Prius. Options packages are a concern, though. It seems like you have to pay for a lot of stuff you don't necessarily want to get the few things you do want. I'll definitely be interested to hear more from the OP as he becomes more familiar with his vehicle. My guess is, if your top two priorities are mpg and price, in roughly equal proportions, you will go for the Insight. If other priorities (interior space and amenities, brand recognition, etc.) figure in, the Prius might win out. It will be an interesting contest, but it's good to have the competition. Future Prius buyers are already benefiting from the expected price reduction. Competition will make both brands try harder.
Yes, there are five+1 warm-up states that are very similar to what we have in the Prius. You can see the detailed info here. Midway through the article you'll find the charts that will allow you to compare the IMA warm-up states to that of the Prius II stages. Cheers; MSantos
I have noticed this with Prius on a few steep inclines, when going from brake to gas at lights. Also with the auto Matrix. It stuck out with Matrix, since I was coming from a Taurus and Ranger. I assumed it's just the way Toyota designed the transmissions. Maybe all their engineers all left foot brake. The idle-stop where the engine is still spinning, may not be an idle-stop. It may be DFCO, deceleration fuel cut off. Many cars do it. Some brands and models are more aggressive about it.
The steering may feel detached but the acceleration and regen braking is more attached to the road. Instantaneous response from the high torque electric motor allows you to control your momentum easily (most noticeable at low speed. Both Prius and Civic hybrid feel like it has bigger engine at low speed. However over 50 mph, Civic hybrid no longer feel powerful but Prius stays torqy all the way to 80 mph. I have not driven the 2010 Insight yet but I heard it is geared down so it should feel closer to the Prius.
What do you mean? Going up hill Prius behaves like this: HYBRID SYNERGY DRIVE: Hill Start Control HYBRID SYNERGY DRIVE: Hill Power Assistance In the second animation, notice the annoying slingshot effect of a car that need to shift gears forcing the engine to rev up and down. It is a design flaw. Mechanical CVT in the Insight and electric CVT in Prius eliminate that.
On particularly steep inclines (certain parking lots, one light around here) my 2005 Prius and 2004 Matrix both would roll back if I didn't do a quicker than normal transition from brake to gas.
Is this any worse than almost every manual transmission ever made? (Excepting some old Subarus) -- Dean, still driving manual transmissions
Never had the pleasure of driving a manual in those exact spots, but likely not. Come to think of it, the HHR has some roll back.
Not to point out the obvious but if a car with a manual transmission is driven properly it shouldn't roll back at all when starting on a hill. All the driver has to do is start letting out the clutch with their left foot as the right foot transitions from the brake to the gas. Done properly the car won't roll back at all. Jason - Also still driving manual transmission vehicles.
I learned to drive in a city that was built on the side of a smallish mountain, and all cars were manual transmission. The only way to start on steep inclines was to engage the handbrake, then give gas while releasing the clutch until the car gripped the road. THEN release the handbrake slowly while continuing to press the gas pedal and fully release the clutch. Failure to do it right either led to the car stalling or rolling backwards a car length. Needless to say, it took a while before people gained their driver's licenses.
I'm going to check out the Honda Insight when it reaches my city out of curiousity. I just cannot believe it is only good for 40+ mpg. I'll just ignore the garish instrument panel.
I guess if the incline is very steep and even the automatic tranny creep can not keep up, the Prius will fall back slowly when you release the brake.
With an experienced manual trans driver on a familar vehicle use to hills. When training a new driver or new to manual transmissions, expect a) lots of jerks and b) killing the engine.
If one wants a clutch to last forever, one doesn't use it to hold the car on hills, so the car is going to roll back a few inches. And if the drivers behind can drive properly, they know to leave enough space.
I'm glad you like your Insight, but I have to disagree. I have not driven an Insight, but I have driven a Gen I Prius, own a Gen II (I assume since you speculated on brakes etc you have not). As you may not know I dislike the driving position in our Prius greatly. I spent a long time with the Insight at the car show. The ONLY thing I liked better about the Insight vs our Gen II Prius was the driving position. Overall I felt the interior was smaller feeling and in general the fit and finish and material quality were a cut lower than the Gen II Prius. I think it compares more in the Quality department with something like a Yaris. The 2010 Prius has such an improved driving position, I would absolutely not buy an Insight over one, and I wouldn't trade our Gen II on one (although I'd trade it in on a lot of cars if my wife would let me). I personally am really dissapointed that Honda couldnt make the outside of this car unique. Its a completely blatant ripoff of the Prius which is almost laughable. Honda is better than that... That said its cheaper and I'm sure its a great car, Hondas are, but its a cut below the Prius overall IMHO.
I thinks its clear that the Civic hasn't been able to match the Prius in a head-to-head battle, so the Insight was positioned at a lower price/performance point. IMA can't match HSD at the Prius level and above, but it does scale down better than HSD. I really hope the market is big enough for all of them. Our national energy policy really needs us to move in that direction.
I've had my 2010 Insight for several weeks now...and I have been quite happy with it. It suits me whether it's a mild hybrid, a wild hybrid, a true hybrid, whatever. I find it interesting when two great companies produce terrific products and we partisans of one or the other form a circular firing squad sniping at one another about which one is best. Both are head and shoulders above the domestically produced hybrids and I expect both to sell well. Those of us who have owned hybrids should not be surprised when they exceed the EPA mileage figures. Thus far I've averaged 52 MPG over about 620 miles, 90% of which have been on hilly terrain. I look forward to some extended flatland driving to see what mileage I can achieve. To add to what the original poster said about electric mode, I have been able to enter electric mode at speeds between 65 to 15 MPH. On one occasion I was able to stay in electric mode for a little over a mile. Now, whether this was "true, full" electric mode or an electric mode which has "wasteful" spinning of the engine, the fact remains that, unless the engine is consuming fuel during that "wasted" motion, one is saving gas, improving mileage, cutting emissions during that interval.
Hi All, My opinion is that the Insight is squarely positioned to take a big bite out of the TDI market. The TDI is competitive in fuel econmoy at steady highway speed cruising but at a cost. Expensive oil changes, maintenance of the turbo, and VW's general issues with their NA assembly quality, expenisve winter fuel, and problematic sub-zero starting. The TDI is not that competitive in metro area traffic either. And so it goes with the Insight. In fact, I expect the Insight to have slightly better fuel economy at highway cruise below 56 mph, than the present Prius, and maybe even the 2010. At this speed, its the engine only being used in what people are calling SHM. The practicality of the smaller engine, is enabled by the hybrid drive train. But once up to speed, one cruises on a steady state opimized engine operation, closer to the smaller engine optimum BSFC, and geared high to minimise pumping losses. Intake ane exhaust manifolds and valve sizes can be tuned to get the BSFC better for this operation too. Using the battery and motor for the power limitations these changes cause. Of course the Prius is the dominant car in the metro area traffic regime. But say your driving 50 miles to work down sparsely populated I74 in Central Illinois, then an Insight might be a good choice.
