Toyota's high reputation

You're right, it is not an exact science, and customer satisfaction is only 1/6th of their input measures.
Go to their website and you'll find they rank Apple at 970, Google at 28, Honda at 8, Mercedes at 109, BMW at 98 and Rolls Royce at 329 (worse than GM)! Intel ranks in at 6, IBM at 10.

So please take these ranking with a large dose of scepticism.

 

You are right, the larget transfer of wealth in the shortest period of time in human history and we have all witnessed it firsthand. There are many who have been either criminally negligent or just plain criminal.

 

Toyota produces the Prius in Japan because at this pooint it benefits Toyota and japan. Toyota is a multinational company with its headquarters in Japan and all board members are Japanese citizens.

Do you think it is coincidence that Toyota produces more than twice as many vehicles in Japan as they sell in Japan and the opposite ratio in the US?

 

Of the 3 US car manufacturers I believe Ford has the greatest potential to prevail against the foreign imports, since they are now being led by Alan Mulally, who trained and worked extensively as an aerospace engineer before getting an MBA and into management at Boeing. (Yes I'm probably biased!). In aerospace, engineering drives the show.
I am of the opinion that the Big Three in Detroit were led for far too long by either Finance or Marketing types, who dictated to production and engineering what to build at lowest cost and sell at the highest mark-up to a captive market they considered theirs by right. As long as gas stayed cheap they got away with it.

Toyota, Honda, BMW, Mercedes etc. on the other hand have always concentrated on excellence in Engineering, in design and particularly in production. They have also had to cater to home markets where gas has always been relatively expensive. The irony is that over the last few decades Toyota have leaned heavily on the work of an American, Edward Deming, in designing the Toyota Production System, which has resulted in their reputation for quality cars and trucks.

And Malorn, please don't forget that many of the millions of dollars that go out of this country when we buy cars made in Japan come right back in again when airlines like JAL and All Nippon buy 737s, 747s, 767s and 777s by bucketful, at $50-$250 million each.

It's called Globalization. It isn't perfect, it needs work, but it's better than protectionism, which no country today can afford to indulge.

 

Globalization? Is that what you call it when Japan takes home $2 or $3 and sends back $1? That has been our trade situation for three decades with Japan. Trading $3 for $1, I guess that is how you build wealth.

 

You are correct about the loss of manufacturing being lost to overseas firms as a very big problem with serious consequences.

But where is the anger at GM leadership for their failings?

My biggest fear of buying a GM car is that I will get a lemon.....if they even had a real high mpg car in the Prius class. Is my fear invented or has GM been known to take a few quality shortcuts over their history?

Fixing the manufacturing loss requires fixing the problems in the ivory towers first....then the rest of the issues become solvable, but not until then.

 

Screw me once, shame on you. Screw me twice, shame on me. Some 23% of all Chevys are full of Mexican parts. I suppose GM transferred thousands of US citizens to work in those Mexican plants. GM, their suppliers, and dealers are now reaping the benefits of a combination of poor engineering, poor assembly and poor customer service. Enjoy your lower standard of living, you deserve it.

 

Which subject did we just switch to ... tanker loads of money shipped to our enemies to buy crackXXXXcrude oil, or bailouts of imploding financials?

 

You must be talking about the hundreds of billions America sends to foreign countries for more oil for our inefficient vehicles. That's what you meant, right?

 

Malorn seems to think you should buy a lower quality car just because it is a domestic product. I certainly hope he fills up the forums at the big 3 as well to berate them into making a vehicle that the people here will buy.

 

No, he wants everyone should buy US big 3 cars so that the big 3 auto workers can keep their $50 an hour job + $37/hr life time pension + life time medical benefits.

 

WAGES:
UAW auto workers do not make $50 an hour +, +, +. The make $28 per hour compared to and average of $24 - $26 and hour for non-union autoworkers at transplant companies. When you add in benefits this jumps to about $38 per hour and is very similar to transplants.

So how do people get the figures that say UAW workers make $74 per hour and transplant companies only pay $45 per hour? That's easy. You take total payments to all workers, current and retired, and divide it by the number of current employees. The big 3 are paying pensions and benefits to hundreds of thousands of retirees while the transplants have very few retirees to support.

In 2010, this gap will disappear. How? Per the terms negotiated for the latest contract in 2010 healthcare costs for retirees will be paid for by the UAW. The UAW gets a lump sum payment and accepts responsibility for all future payments. The UAW has also agreed to a two tier wage that will have new hires starting at $12 per hour.

UAW Losing Pay Edge: Foreign Automakers' Bonuses Boost Wages in U.S. Plants as Detroit Car Companies Struggle: aftermarket News

QUALITY:
Ford and GM have made large gains in vehicle quality over the last 5 years. JD Powers Dependability Ratings (after 4-years) show that domestic brands can compete and beat transplant brands on quality:



JD Powers Initial Quality Ratings (after 90 days) show a similar trends:



As you can see from the initial quality data the difference between a Toyota, Honda, Chevy, and Ford is a rounding error:

• Toyota ---- 1.09 problems per vehicle
• Honda ---- 1.10 problems per vehicle
• Ford ------ 1.12 problem per vehicle
• Chevy ---- 1.13 problems per vehicle

PERCEPTION:
Ford and GM do have a perception problem. They put out some poor vehicles in the 80's and 90's and burned a lot of people. Their car platforms were out of date and compared poorly to the better offerings from the imports. It will take time to overcome the perception they deservedly earned. As Marlorn has said, he has a quality product with comparable features and fuel economy for every market segment except the Prius. Since 97% of the car buying public didn't purchase a hybrid that puts his dealership and manufacturer in a good position to battle it out with Honda, Toyota, and Nissan. That is if the buyers are willing to reavaluate what they think they know about GM and Ford and look at the current product. The problem today is getting people into the dealership, not the product.

 

Of the domestic auto manufacturers, I think Ford has the best chance to be around in five years. It is really questionable whether GM and Chrysler will be unless they are nationalized.

Nevertheless, count me in the group who previously bought Ford and then regretted that move. My dad was loyal to Ford most of his life until he got tired of dealing with quality problems and started to buy Nissan and Toyota cars starting in the 1980s. (He also became an early and avid Prius fan, starting with the 2001, and has bought three Prius so far.)

I've purchased European and Japanese brands for most of my life until the late 90s, when (to give Ford a chance) I bought a 1997 Ford Explorer XLT V8 AWD, a 2000 Ford Mustang GT convertible, and a 2002 Ford Taurus SES.

The Explorer was mechanically sound, but suffered from the flip-over problems that you may recall seeing on TV several years ago. You can imagine how that publicity helped that vehicle's resale value when I sold it to make room for my HiHy. Spark plug wires were cheap, and fell apart when I replaced the platinum plugs (had to raise up the front end and remove the front tires to gain access to the plugs via the wheel well openings. Scraped a few inches of skin off my arm while I was struggling to pull off a spark plug connector.)

The Taurus's automatic transmission was rebuilt 2x under warranty and had windshield seal wind noise. It also had valve cover oil leaks. A cheaply designed car that was instrumental in Ford's quality and financial decline.

The Mustang has low miles on it and I've kept it for sentimental reasons. However the 4.6L modular V8 engine had its share of bad publicity with insufficient threads on spark plug holes, hence spark plugs are known for shooting out of the engine especially when installed in trucks that stress the drivetrain more severely.

I had occasion to visit the Ford Rouge F-150 plant while attending Prius Connection Detroit in mid-January. One thing that caught my eye was the very large rework section where assembled F-150 trucks were sitting, waiting to be worked on to repair a variety of assembly errors. I don't think you would find this in a Japanese auto plant, where the emphasis is on preventing error rather than fixing error after it occurs.

Regarding the JD Power quality survey, I think it is also important to assess the type of problems being reported. A failure of a CD player is less important than the failure of a transmission, but they seem to receive equal weighting...

 

The Ford Explorer is no more likely to flip than any other body on frame SUV. The whole Explorer flipping scare was due to a defect in Firestone tires that was only a problem if people drove on severely under inflated tires. It was a whole scare was created by lawyers and media. Yes the spark plugs are hard to get to in a V8 Explorer. (My mother is on her 3rd Explorer, her first was also a 1997.)

A 2002 Ford Taurus is a very old design that was first introduced in 1996. Yes, it was a poorly designed and mediocre car that was mostly sold to car rental companies. I am suspicious of a transmission that has been rebuilt multiple times though. I suspect that the mechanic repairing your transmission either didn't fully diagnose the problem the first time or didn't fix it right.

You are a good example of the problem facing GM and Ford. You bought 3 Ford cars during a time when Ford was putting out mediocre products with below average reliability. You got burned and mostly likely won't be visiting their showrooms anytime soon. (My Uncle won't consider a Ford because he had a bad experience back in the 60's!) However this problem is fixable, the blueprint is out there just waiting to be copied.

When Hyundai first came to the US their cars were simply junk and had huge reliability problems. Hyundai improved their cars but people still were put off by the bad reputation. Hyundai overcame this perception problem by offering their now famous 100,000 mile warranty. They bought back confidence by standing behind their product. GM and Ford need to do the same.

I agree that knowing the type of problem in more important than the number of problems. However, the major companies that track this information don't seem to agree. Both JD Powers and Consumer Reports generally report total problems and evenly rate all problems. They do have a breakdown for major systems but you still don't know if a "drivetrain" problem is a $20 sensor or $2000 rebuild.

The only place I have found this type of information is at MSN Autos. Their data company pulls information from dealership records instead of consumers so they know what the problem is, what it took to fix it, and how much it cost. For example it has this to say about your 2002 Taurus:

"Occasional problems with this vehicle are failure of the Fuel Pump and Differential Pressure Feedback EGR (DPFE) Sensor. Failure of the Fuel Pump may prevent the engine from starting. The cost to replace the Fuel Pump is estimated at $254.00 for parts and $130.00 for labor. The cost to replace the DPFE sensor is estimated at $68.00 for parts and $32.50 for labor. All prices are estimates based on $65.00 per flat rate hour and do not include diagnostic time or any applicable sales tax."

 

Oh that's right, I made a warranty claim on my Tercel back in 1984, the plastic gasket around the driver's door handle had a moulding fault. And my Prius needed a shocker replaced at 61,000km. Isn't exactly a transmission failure.

 

Count me in for that statisitc

My 2000 GMC Sierra, which I even special ordered, was a nightmare POS. I got rid of a 1990 4Runner which had far fewer problems over 10 YEARS than that Sierra had in the first year!

Eg, around two weeks old, backed out of the garage, noticed a puddle of oil on the garage floor. Thought "Wth!?" walked into the garage, poked my finger in the puddle, and sniffed: gear oil.

The rear axle pinion seal had gone with under 200 km on the odometer. Yes, fixed under warranty

Parked on a slight incline and applied the parking brake. SPROING and something inside broke. Had to pull the pedal up to get it released. Dealer took 2 months to get the F Bomb part. It got old pulling up the pedal by hand

When warmed up, the motor picked up a very lopey and rough idle, but NO check engine light. Dealer shrugged, said it was "normal." A TSB came out around half a year later, the cure was to reflash the ECM.

The most serious issue was at around 5,000 km, when the engine developed that infamous Vortec Knock Knock. Hot or cold, start the motor and KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK like an old diesel. Neighbor actually thought my Sierra WAS a diesel, based on the sound effects

Dealer at first promised to fix it. Then got all cold and pricky with me, handed me an official GM Canada notice that the knocking, and up to 1 litre per 600 km oil consumption, was "normal"

My truck was using about 1 litre per 700 km, so apparently that was "normal"

Mode select cluster did a fuster cluck on me and quit working, the Driver Information Center would scroll "SERVICE 4WD" in scary amber lettering. The transfer case automatically reverts to 2WD, which was very handy when I was trying to drive out from the cabin I used to own. Needed to call a wrecker once to tow me out, which dealer and GM Canada refused to reimburse me for

The mode select cluster was replaced 3X under warranty, once off warranty.

Rear axle seals went twice under warranty, once off warranty. The "drum in hat" rear parking brake needed adjusting every 6 months or wouldn't hold the empty truck on a slight grade. Dealer became increasingly pricky with me, the little weasle of a service manager came very close to getting a broken face from me

So, do you think I'd even waste my time walking back into a GM dealership?

Let's contrast me Prius: my Prius is one of a handful that conked out. I was in traffic on Kenaston, headed towards my condo, when I pulled away on a green light. Suddenly a stumble, dash lights up like an xmas tree, and I knew the pooch had been screwed

As luck would have it, I pulled into the Dr Hook towing yard. Called the toll free Toyota number on the card, explained what had happened, and then went inside the Dr Hook office and waited while one of their flatbed trucks pulled the Prius up

The dealership actually sent one of their sales guys to pick me up and take me to the dealership, profusely apologizing the entire time. Dealer manager also apologized, handed me the keys to his personal Avalon demo, and told me they'd call the instant they had it fixed

At the time, the Prius Stall was still a TSB issue, not a recall issue. When they had it fixed, they drove over to my condo so I didn't have to bother driving in to the dealership

That issue of the Prius conking out on me could have soured the relationship right there, on the spot. If my Toyota dealer had acted the same as the GM dealer, I'm positive it would have turned into a fuster cluck.

So I've had nothing but good luck with Toyota. My Prius has had a few issues, but in almost every case the dealership bent over backwards to keep me happy. If the GM dealership had done that, perhaps I wouldn't have been so soured on them

As far as my choice of SUV, I could have saved thousands if I had picked up a Trailblazer instead of an FJ. Do you think I could bring myself to even *sit* in a Trailblazer after having such a bad experience with that Sierra?

I know some Prius owners have been burned, or felt they have been burned, by the dealership when they had problems. Since I've Been There Done That, all I can say to Toyota is that they had better go out of their way to keep Toyota owners happy

Otherwise, burned owners tend to really spread bad word of mouth. I'm confident my bad word of mouth cost that GM dealership *plenty*

 

Hi Jay,

Sounds like your GMC Sierra was competing to attain Jaguar quality standards of the 70s...

While we are talking about vehicle product quality, I want to relate an observation made while visiting the Ford F-150 plant. (By the way, I was with Jelloslug <who gained instant PriusChat fame by rebuilding a 2008 salvage a few months ago and providing excellent photos and narration of his work>, Mrs. Jelloslug, and Doc Willie, in case they decide to join the discussion.)

We were looking at the assembly line where tailgates were being assembled prior to being mounted on the back of the truck load beds. One woman was applying various exterior trim to the tailgate, but she was not consistent in the trim that was being applied. Further down the line, two men were applying the remaining trim. So they had to look at each tailgate, figure out what was missing, and then apply what was needed. I hope that the Ford engine and transmission plants don't operate like that.

One load bed, going through the assembly line, had an accumulation of snow within, while the others didn't. What's the story with that??

I understand that the Rouge plant produces one F-150 per minute. Apparently there's a high emphasis on production output quantity there.

 

No i'm talking about China and Japan etal taking $3 billion a day out of the US. The deficit with China and Japan was larger than the oil deficit even with $150/barrel oil.

 

don't post bs about Chevy, 23% are full of mexican parts? How about a source? No source just the mythology started by toyota and co.