2010 Insight reviewed, compared to 2009 Prius

This hits on a key complaint I have with my Prius and Toyotas in general. Toyota could have easily made the Prius handle better for little if any cost. They instead chose not too.

The seat position may be a key too. With the seating position so high it multiplies the feeling of the body roll. Simply lowering the seat would make the Prius feel like it handled better.

 

I still don't get it.

Why not report the ESC on numbers so that one compares apples to apples?

Or why not report both numbers -- how hard would that have been? I could type it now in 15 seconds:

Insight Skidpad: ESC Off - 0.79 g, ESC On - [0.75] g.

 

Their policy is to report the highest number they achieve, and I think they run the test multiple times and report the highest number. It's not hard to get?

 

The sum of the Honda and the Toyota scores for each requirement will always be 6. So if the Honda is rated higher, the Toyota is rated lower by an equal amount. What this does is minimize the Lake Woebegone effect, "... and all the children are above average." <grins>

Bob Wilson

 

So you're OK with:

• ESC number for one vehicle
• non-ESC number second vehicle

Understand that I'm not passing any judgment but wanted to make sure you're OK with this comparison.

Bob Wilson

 

I think Honda ripped off the Prius design. The outside of the cars looked almost identical. The Prius has set the tone for hybrids and now other manufaturers are playing catch up. Even if other car makers come out with something that can compete against the Prius, Toyota has a several year history of mechanical reliability that most other hybrids do not.

Also, that smart key feature has me so spoiled that I can not imagine owning another car without it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The seat is high for 2 reasons
1. Easier for an ageing population to get in and out, this is also why there is no side support for your thighs.
2. More leg room in a shorter wheelbase, lower the seat and you reduce leg room.

If they had made the seat lower they could have lowered the roof therefore reduced drag, but added weight because of a longer wheelbase.

 

1. I'm not old. However, if they would have simply used the height adjustable driver seat from the less expensive Corolla and Matrix they could have made both the old and young happy.

2. The Prius has a very generous amount of rear legroom for a mid-size car. Toyota could have simply extended adjustment track for the driver seat to give tall drivers all the room they need without needing to extend the wheelbase. I think the Prius is so tall so that those old drivers don't need to bend down so far to get in.

 

I'm fine with ESC on one car and non-ESC on another. The point is to report the fastest possible time that the car is capable of. The fact that a human could get around the skidpad faster without a computerized "driver's aid" simply shows that the ESC is set conservatively. I take all magazine tests performance numbers to be best figures achieved with expert testers. One should expect that the average driver will not be able to achieve those numbers.

BTW, I found your spreadsheet to be interesting and show that we value very different things in vehicles. I find it amazing that you only rate a difference in $2000 between a loaded Insight and base Prius to only have a revelence of "1", the same as the temperature and humidity at the test track. (I gave price a relevancy of 10, Fuel Economies, acceleration, braking, slalom, skidpad, front legroom, cargo room 5's)

 

LS with OEM Navi
Adding Taxes and fees equal to about 24K to 25kUS$
For your reference my Prius was about 30kUS$

I want LS because all futures and also HID.
Also in Japan able to get smart entry with additional cost however my father can not uses to it but he love push start.

We are waiting for New Prius to come out. Then deciede what to get our next company car.

 

The concept is to provide the highest possible skidpad number a car can achieve. If a design decision with HSD prevents ESC from being disabled, so be it.

Again, the object is to report the best skidpad performance, which is exactly what they did.

 

Ok, I was curious about why ESC was even in the vehicles given what a terrible thing it seems to do to skid-pan performance:

IIHS news release

Bob Wilson

 

ESC is on vehicles to reduce accidents and prevent deaths. Most drivers are not experts who's job it is to drive automobiles to their limits. Public roads are not the controlled conditions you will find on a skidpad. Just because an expert can beat a computer in controlled conditions that drivers shouldn't use ESC.

Motorcycles are going through an interesting influx of technology right now. BMW and Honda have been working on ABS systems for about 2 decades now and they are finally getting to the point that the computer can beat an expert human. Honda has just introduced a new linked ABS system on their 600cc and 1000cc CBR sportbikes. (This system links the front and rear brakes that are normally controlled independently.) You would think that his would be heralded as a huge technological leap and it has been my magazine editors that have ridden and reviewed the motorcycles. However, on internet blogs, the general feeling seems to be that this technology is a waste of money and "dumbing down" motorcycles for novice riders. Linked ABS is $1000 option so I hope it sells well enough to become standard on most motorcycles. I would like my next motorcycle to have ABS.

 

I'm not sure that I'd ever take my car on a skid pan, but ESC does help prevent accidents when driving on normal roads.

That said, again, Edmunds tests the limits of what a car can do. If the Civic managed to pull better numbers with the ESC on, that's what they'd report. It's certainly not their fault that the Prius has artificial limits.

 

In the requirements shared by the Insight and the Prius, turn performance with ESC enabled is not enough to significantly change the score. But we have a 2001 Toyota Echo and I know it can not come close to making the same turns my 2003 Prius accomplishes.

Just for grins, I looked up the Edmunds report on the 2001 Echo "Skid Pad Laternal acceleration (g): "32.8" Now 8 g will result in blackout for trained military pilots and 15 g is the threshold for human life injury. A value to "32.8" g is in well within the range of non-survivable force and it is amazing that Edmunds didn't report an frame deformation. For a 2,100 lb prius, 32.8 g would have been a lateral force of 68,880 lbs or just over 34 tons. Seeing Edmunds report this skid-pan value made me smile.

Sad to say, Edmunds has no data on on the NHW11 skid-pan performance.

Bob Wilson

 

THey may have just put any number in there for the Echo. I think Echos were designed to self destruct if they went near a skid pad.

 

I was interested in "How do you turn off Electronic Stability Control (ESC)?" Is this a dashboard switch or something that requires pulling a fuse? Google wasn't very helpful so I thought, no problem, I'll go to the Honda web site:

Honda Hybrid and Alternative Fuel Vehicles ? Official Honda Web Site

<SHESSHH>The Big-Insight isn't even listed!

So just like the mythical 2010 Prius, we're chatting about something that may or may not be in production and may or may not ever show up in the USA. Some of us remember James Bede.

So near as I can tell, Edmunds has tested 'something' that is called a Honda Insight (Big-Insight) that may or may not in the production models have a button, switch or fuse that allows the operator to enable or disable the ESC, a safety feature the USA insurance companies recognize as an important safety feature. This 'something' was tested against a real, production Prius and the performance of the ESC systems were never compared head-to-head.

I'm content to wait for the production models and testing of them, head-to-head. I also look forward to asking Consumer Reports if the ability to enable/disable ESC (they call it VSC) compares with their opinion about some Prius models not having it and others having it. One can disable Prius VSC (aka., ESC) by testing a particular set of options.

Late note: apparently the Honda "Vehicle Stability Assist (VSA) System" button is in the Accura owner's manual, pp 2. So it remains a temptation for reviewers who seem unwilling to compare VSA/ESC systems.

Bob Wilson

 

My opinion on the whole ESC disabling while testing issue: If ESC wasn't designed to be disabled (IE, there isn't a switch for it and you have to pull a fuse or disconnect something), you should be testing with ESC enabled.

If you really want to test with ESC off anyway, do so, but make sure you note the shenanigans you had to pull to get those numbers.

It seems that most cars are not equipped with the ability to turn ESC off without pulling a fuse or similar, so IMO, they are doing a disservice by using those numbers without a healthy disclaimer.