2010 Insight reviewed, compared to 2009 Prius

That's true, but there's a balance to be had. Overstiffness will lead to less grip, the same as excessive roll will lead to less grip. The Prius, clearly, falls into the excessive roll department*.

*That's the base suspension, which is what I drove. I can not say how well the touring might or might not handle.

 

Sorry guys, have to address some handling myths with regards to body roll.

Not necessarily...

Also, not necessarily.

A stiffer anti roll bar on one end only "tends" (and not always) to reduce grip at that end of the car. It does this because increasing roll stiffness at one end increases the rate at which load increases at those wheels as the load shifts. Because you are increasing the load on the outside tire (which bears the vast majority of the cornering weight) you will reach the limits of that tire sooner which causes it to lose traction "sooner".

Now as to why decreasing body roll doesn't always work:

As Johnnycat suggested, the goal of the suspension is to keep all 4 tires as close to parallel to the ground as possible at all times.

Ignoring suspension travel, obviously, if you roll the car, the wheels will roll with it.

BUT - once you take into account suspension travel, you will find that the camber of the wheels changes as the wheel moves up and down in it's travel.

Optimized for cornering, the suspension would be designed to keep the tires parallel to the road regardless of the amount of body roll.

But this would compromise grip under hard braking as the car pitches forward.

So in the end, every single suspension design is compromised to take into account body roll, pitch, stiffness, NVH, etc.

I'm out of time for now, but this will get you guys thinking until I can finish.

 

The simple answer is a max side-G turn at some given speed and see who achieves the greatest G force before tire skid marks.

Anyone got a Honda Big-Insight to test with? How about a 2010 Prius? <GRINS>

Why don't we just wait until we can get our hands on the buggers, drive them up to HybridFest and see if we can get some quality 'handling time' in the parking lot. <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

 

Edmunds did this by testing the cars on the skidpad:

• Insight -- 0.79 g
• Prius ---- 0.70 g

Comparison Test: 2010 Honda Insight vs. 2009 Toyota Prius

The slalom is a combined test of acceleration and road holding. The vehicles accelerate from a stop and attempt to get through the cones with the highest possible trap speed. One would expect a faster accelerating vehicle to have a higher slalom speed.

 

Uh, no. Unless space is lacking, all slalom tests are attempted to be run at the highest possible steady speed. Or at least they should be.

The only time power could come into play would be if the engine lacked enough power to maintain speed through the slalom.

 

Thanks!

I especially appreciate the testing note "Boo" identified. Nothing like getting an absolutely fair and equal test of one vehicle with ESC and the other without ESC and no mention of it in a posting. I'm happy.

Bob Wilson

 

So if I understand this right, the Insight handles and grips better than the Prius, but the Prius scored better in the slalom because of its better acceleration?

If I'm not mistaken, that edmunds road testing protocol was weird. In the comments, it's suggested that the Insight skidpad test number was achieved with the ESC turned off, while the Prius' ESC was on. If this was the case, I don't see why they didn't just test both with their ESC on, and publish those numbers, which would be more of an apples to apples comparison.

The other interesting thing in the comments was edmunds noting that the Prius 60-0 mph braking distance was a previously unheard of and currently inexplicable 120 feet. I'm going to have to dismiss that outstanding braking score as an outlying anomoly.

 

Yea, I was too wondering how they pulled more G with those skinner tires (175mm) in the Insight.

 

Why care much about high performance reviews for eco cars?
You really need to get there so first? If you need get there first why not buy high end perfomace cars?

I mean really can not compare with new Insight against current Prius. (Or new Prius)
It's totally different concept cars now we are talking about.

Honda new slogan in Japan call "Honda Green Machine" or HGM
They want build affordable green cars for mass market.
Other hand Toyota went to different direction.

As you know new prius is more bells and whistle than Insight.
Insight is much smaller car than Prius and slightly lighter.
Insight price is much cheaper than Prius. In Japan Insight stars around 19kUS$ but Prius is like 23k US$ and high taxes.

Specs!
Weights for
Insight is 1,190kg
Prius is 1,260kg in Japan

Size for
Insight is (L)4,390m x (w)1,695m x (h)1,425m
Current Prius is (L)4,445m x (w)1,725m x (h)1,490m

FIY Insight will fit in small car catagory in Japan so taxes are much cheaper but other hand Prius is large car catagory taxes.
Also new Prius will be almost same size.

Engine
Insight is 1.3L and assist by motor and which feel like 1.5engine cars
Prius is Electric motor driven and assist by 1.5L engine

Motor
Insight is output 10kw(14ps)/1500rmp, Tq78N.m(8.0kg.m)/1000rpm
Prius is output 50kw(68ps)/1,200~1540rpm, Tq400N.m(40.8kg.m)/0~1,200rmp


Many Japanese Magazine explain as Prius drive like boat but Insight is like Thoroughbred. Insight is much fun to drive than Prius.

About 2 to 3month will know what's good or bad about new Prius in Japan.

 

I don't drive fast nor do I care about getting anywhere first.

But I do like cars that handle well and/or are fun to drive.

For a car of the Prius and Insight's size (around 175 inches long) and class, I still want and expect "flingability". But when I try to "fling" the Gen II Standard Prius around a corner, it feels like I'm driving a minivan lol.

THAT'S what I'm talking about!

 

No, see my earlier comment about slalom testing.

It's quite common for the car which exhibits more understeer at the limit to post higher slalom scores. This is because driving through a slalom at the limit tends to send the back end of the car around. If a car is tough to control, it can result in a lower score.

Is it possible to turn ESC off on the Prius? That probably has more to do with it - though I agree they should be more up front about it - if they are able to turn it on/off, they should post both numbers and say so.

In this case, it's because the Honda does a better job of keeping the outside tires squarely planted. "It's not how much rubber you have, but how you use it!"

 

Thanks,

I been here but not posted any thing untill now.
My father and I were talking about getting Insight which about 3 to 4 month waiting at moment in Japan.
I want LS and drive out price is about 24k~25k US$ no discouints
Honda | Æ’Nƒ‹ƒ} | Æ’Cƒ“ƒTÆ’CÆ’g | Æ’^Æ’CÆ’vÂE‰¿ŠiÂE‘•â€Ãµ | LSÆ’^Æ’CÆ’v

 

In engineering, we often use a weight evaluation of competing products. This means we list all specifications in a spreadsheet for competing products and then:

• weight requirement: 0-don't care, 1-relevant, 2-very
• relative value: 1-worst, 5-best, and all add to 6 (relative!)
• score = weight_requirement * relative_value
• sum the scores

Now the "weight requirement" is relative as it should be and driven by one's individual needs. Relative value between the Prius and Honda is a little less subjective but again, folks have to decide if there is a significant difference. Often this excercise tells us more about ourselves. Regardless, here is a spreadsheet built from the Edmunds evaluation.

Bob Wilson

 

Edmunds policy has always been to test with ESC on and off and report the highest number, as that's what they're after. Makes sense. I don't see why they would handicap the Insight for what is, essentially, the design flaw of not being able to turn ESC off in a HSD equipped car.

 

And then after all that, when it comes to cars and selecting mates, we toss out the analytical data and say "...but I really want the one with the sexy lines."

Tom

 

Some reviewers say the Prius and other Toyota's have 'numb steering' or 'not much feedback'. I just think the Prius steering is docile, not numb.

Test drove a 2009 Mazda3 5 door last Saturday - yes, it has tight, crisp steering response. There are so many reviews saying that car is fun and a blast to drive.

I'm sure some are getting tired of hearing this, but the singular thing that will drive me out and away from this 2009 Prius when able is ...

the fact that I cannot easily get lower in the car. The headroom is there for me, but I don't like sitting up so high in a car.

 

Cool xls bob. Not sure where the score values come from. Also why is the toyota score simple 6 minus the Honda's score?

 

I took a look at Edmund's "How We Test" video and you are correct they come into the slalom course at speed. My knowledge of slalom course is from driving schools and they accelerated from a stop, most likely due to space restrictions.

It is odd that the Insight beats the Prius by so much on the skidpad but then is slightly slower through the slalom. It could be a difference in ESC settings for the different cars.

CycleDrum, Yes, the Mazda 3 has fantastic handling and feedback to the driver. I would love to have the handling of the Mazda with the fuel economy of the Prius. I won't happen though because the two companies have very different philosophies when defining was "good" handling and ride is. Mazda likes taunt and responsive while Toyota prefers soft and floaty.

 

No, it's not odd at all.

On the skidpad, it means is that the Insight is better balanced and able to generate more grip in steady state cornering than the Prius. The amount of body roll and strut based front suspension really hurts it here. Even a simple alignment tweak dialing in 1-1.5* of negative camber would make a huge difference. Stiffer anti-roll bars would also likely make up the difference.

On the slalom, it means that the Prius is easier to control in quick transitions. It could be the Prius has better low speed shock damping or even the fact that it does push more than the Insight that lets it go faster in the slalom. Most cars tend to spin in the slalom as you reach the limit unless your are really ham-fisted or it suffers from severe understeer.

Yeah, Mazdas in general handle very well. Even their minivan feels decent getting tossed around.

But I don't get people calling the Prius soft and floaty, because it doesn't really feel that way to me. I feel it actually has pretty good damping, far better than these other cars I've driven recently:

1996 Camry - Now this is soft and floaty, and talk about numb steering!
1995 Civic - Steering OK, but has a ton of body roll, soft springs and soft damping
2007 Civic - Steering good, body roll OK, spring rates OK, but rear damping is way too soft. Front damping feels OK.

All the Prius really needs is some stiffer anti-roll bars and a bit of negative camber in the front and it should handle a lot better than stock. Getting the front seat a couple inches lower would make it feel a lot better, too.