Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Do you value the super ultra low emission advantage that the Prius offers? How about the ultra smooth acceleration?

 

It's a line from a poorly translated game port many years ago.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg"]YouTube - All Your Base Are Belong To Us[/ame]

If you never drive either of them or they never leave the lot. But if you actually drive you erase the differential after a few months. That diesel premiums sucks and the lower MPG of the TDI doesn't help either.

And then if you ever need to resell or your car is totalled, the TDI really takes it on the chin.

Bummer, dude! ound:

 

VERY FUNNY

You are assuming that the current difference between diesel and 87 gasoline will remain instead of pricing returning to its historical pattern. Historically diesel is less than regular in the summer and more than premium in the winter. This changed 2 years ago and diesel has been more than regular ever since. I am curious to see what happens this summer since the world's economy is down and developing countries aren't using as much diesel. (Since I've owned my TDI the average price of gasoline has been $2.49 while diesel has been $2.62, a difference of 5%)

Yes the Prius gets better overall mileage.

You seem to have completely missed the Diesel Premium. Yes, I paid $2,000 more for my TDI then I would have a gasoline engine. However, my TDI is worth much more than a gasoline model. From KBB:

(35080, premium sound, 5M, 182K miles, excellent condition, retail)
2003 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon = $11,890
2003 Jetta GLS 2.0 Wagon = $ 8,040
------------------------------- +$3,850 (48%)

If I drove a normal amount of miles per year
(35080, premium sound, 5M, 90K miles, excellent condition, retail)
2003 Jetta GLS TDI Wagon = $13,565
2003 Jetta GLS 2.0 Wagon = $ 9,140
-------------------------------- +$4,425 (48%)

 

No, I included it. I did a quick KBB check on 2003 TDI sedans and compared to a 2003 Prius. Difference was still ~$4,000 in Prius favor. You can quibble over the numbers being as low as $2,000 if you like, but the premium is still with the hybrid.

I doubt you will see the diesel premium reverse in the U.S. The drivers for that just aren't there considering the major diesel users. I doubt the refiners will be willing to spend the capital to make it happen. If there is much growth in diesel automotive use it will get worse, rather than better, so I see diesel automotive use as self limiting.

I could be wrong but it appears to me that there are larger drivers to limiting gasoline consumption long term, putting gasoline supply in relative excess. Reducing gasoline consumption is a relatively easy goal compared to increasing diesel consumption through transition from gasoline.

 

Jonny, I hope you have the same tyres on both cars for your braking test, it would be a shame to write off a perfectly good car because it had low rolling resistant, low grip tyres. Yep, VW might win all the handling comparisons by putting sticky tyres on their cars. I don't get left behind on winding roads riding on Michelins.

 

I have no idea how you figured that.

I get the following:

2003 Jetta GL TDI Sedan:

• Original MSRP = $18,750 (MSN - Autos)
• With 90K mile = $12,945 (69.0% of MSRP)
• With 182K mile = $11,270 (60.1% of MSRP)

(KBB, 5M, 35080, retail, excellent condition, standard features + premium sound)

2003 Prius

• Original MSRP = $19,995 (MSN - Autos)
• With 90K mile = $11,470 (57.3% of MSRP)
• With 182K mile = $9,795 (49.0% of MSRP)

(KBB, 35080, retail, excellent condition, standard features + premium sound)

My 2003 Jetta TDI GLS Wagon cost $22,292.52 (Out the door)
With 182,000 miles KBB puts the Retail value at $11,890 (53.3% of new) That is a depreciation of $10,402 or $0.057 per mile.

I use retail value because that would be the cost to replace my current vehicle at a dealership.

 

Another HUGE reason Diesel will never go back below gas is because of our good friend, Mr. Sulfer. Diesel was historically cheeper than gas because of the likes of George W & his oilie lobby friends who saw to it that higher sulfer (etc) emissions were allowed. Now that refineries are being forced to refine diesel to a purer state, it will forever cost more.

 

Yes, the Jetta might have a handling advantage by using sticky tires. However, at the same time, those sticky tires hurt fuel economy. The most objective way to compare vehicles is as they come from the factory. Otherwise where does it end? Tires, shock, springs, swaybars, etc. Where do you stop modifying to try to make the vehicles equal?

There is no doubt that the Prius is let down by the absolutely horrible tires Toyota chooses to install at the factory.

 

There is no doubt that the switch to ULSD increased the refining cost for diesel. I don't credit the majority of the recent increase in diesel fuel to ULSD though. The DOE estimated the cost to switch from LSD to ULSD to be $0.05 to $0.083 per gallon depending on the type of refinery and methods adopted. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - The Transition to Ultra-Low-Sulfur Diesel Fuel: Effects on Prices and Supply

I attribute the majority of the increase in diesel prices to supply and demand. The supply of diesel fuel increased very little while developing countries were going through rapid expansion. China was building huge amount of infrastructure and expanding manufacturing. Many Chinese and Indian manufacturing plants have a diesel backup power generation because the grid cannot be relied on for consistent power.

Again, I will be interested in seeing what happens this summer. The difference in price usually peaks in February- March so if we are going back to history patterns the difference should begin to narrow over the next few months.

 

Exactly.

It's also interesting to note that the Jetta is nearly 300 lbs heavier than the Prius (3230 lbs vs 2932), which may be why the Jetta gets a 5 star side impact on the rear, and the Prius get a 4.

If we really want to be fair, we should somehow throw another 300 lbs at a Prius to even all this out. Just reinforce those rear doors, and we'll see how it all shakes out.

 

Probably because your retail for the Prius was two thousand below what I pulled up and your value on the Jetta was two thousand above what I pulled up in a quick pass before I posted.

I'm not going to spend all week dancing around the figures with you. You've got a history of distorting such figures to suit your case, and I'm not going to play, sorry.

 

Don't even get TDI owners started when it comes to tranny repair costs. My carpool buddy bit off that TDI expense a few months ago. I forgot how many thousands it cost him. With the excetion of our Range Rover's $6,000 tranny replacement cost (then we got rid of it for the Lexus hybrid SUV ) I'd never heard of a tranny expense being that large.
Then there's the TDI's interior room. Admittedly, I haven't been in the newest TDI, and I am 6'-5" ... but we looked like sardines in the TDI, compared to the room in the Prius. Maybe the newest ones are bigger than say, 4 or 5 years ago? Folks fret the Prius battery replacement cost, but it's less than my car pool'ers tranny. eh, I suppose everything costs a mint now days.

 

I am not surprise that you do value the low emission. Edmunds obviously don't as they did not use a single emission word in the comparison. IMHO, reducing 90% of the emission that causes global warming and cancer completely outweigh the handling.

It is safe to say that Prius is in the lowest emission class but the Jetta TDI is in the highest emission class. Why did Edmunds completely ignored that?

TDI owners loves to point out the ability to run on biodiesel. The fact is that you will void the warranty if you use diesel with more than 5% biodiesel. Heck, the gasoline in my Prius has 15% biogasoline (ethanol). I can use E15 without voiding Toyota warranty.

That transmission can't help the diesel engine's bell shaped torque curve that creates the "slingshot" effect during acceleration. I find the sound of the ICE revving up and down caused by the change of gears quite annoying.

Prius ICE can be loud during hard acceleration but it stays at the same frequency. Human ear can adjust and filter it out as background noise easier.

 

Simply using 17" wheels with wider tires to the Prius add that feeling of confidence. It is not a rocket science really.

Having both 17" and 15" wheels, I racked up more miles in the 15" because it does the job for my everyday commute well. Believe it or not, I find the 15" more fun to drive because I play the MPG game. With the 17", hard cornering gets boring after awhile.

 

Other than SUV owners, I'm not aware of anyone getting killed because their vehicles didn't handle well. Any increased risk of an accident due to "poorer" handling is going to be offset by the increased time a VW owner spends broken down on the side of or in the middle of the road. The better handling will also tempt VW owners to drive recklessly.

Use of biodiesel only helps the environment if considering your personal emissions. Biodiesel isn't discarded but is used in trucks or for industrial purposes. If you use biodiesel then a truck somewhere is using diesel instead.

 

A slight detour, my interest was raised when someone mentioned in this thread discussions of the Prius in the TDI forums. So I went for a visit and sure enough there was a thread about someone having test driven a Prius.

As expected, there was a lot of ignorance (which is no more a sin than a child's innocence) so I volunteered some facts and data without being judgemental about the TDI. I was somewhat amused that a couple of the replies to my post included references to the "Top Gear" skits on shooting up a Prius and a Prius getting 17 MPG. So I pointed out that it is easy to dial in any Prius MPG from '10 MPG to over 100 MPG.'

I have no interest in trolling or causing a ruckus in someone else's 'sand box.' Rather, I went there to offer some facts and data that I suspected they didn't know. After the "Top Gear" mileage reply, I posted a dispassionate engineering analysis behind Prius mileage extremes. When I checked this morning, the thread had grown quiet as their interest turned back to their favorite ride, the TDI.

So let's enjoy our own Prius vs Jetta thread as the days count down to the 2010 Prius. No, the 2010 won't be perfect (I'll be ordering one but already know what I would like better) but like the old story of the two boys from Jackson County who saved up to go lion hunting only to be surprised in the bush ... as they were running along, one boy said to the other:
"Why are we running so hard? Man can not out run a lion."

His best friend replied:
"I'm only trying to out run you."

Let the TDI folks find their own happiness while we seek ours.

Bob Wilson

 

While some of the economy objections raised here about the Edmunds article may be legitimate, I dispute the “Prius has a clear emissions advantage†assertion. The Bin or LEV II category a vehicle hits borders on being irrelevant because these regulatory categories are LIMITS and no credit is given for substantially exceeding the individual emission limits (i.e., the categories are an “all or nothing†proposition; missing just one emission throws the vehicle into a higher Bin). The ULEV II Jetta TDI is near or below SULEV limits with respect to all criteria pollutants with the exception of NOx (and even with this criteria pollutant, the absolute difference is very small – 0.04 g/mi @ UL for the 2009 Jetta TDI; 0.01 g/mi @ UL for the 2009 Prius).

Technically, the Jetta TDI isn't in the "highest" emission category anyway - it's Bin 5 with respect to the federal tier (Bin 8 is the "highest" emission category); it's ULEV II with respect to the California tier (LEV II is the "highest" category).

You may get slightly lower NOx emissions with the Prius, but the tradeoff as JSH mentioned is higher HC emissions if you take evaporative emissions into account. That’s exactly what isn’t needed in "VOC-limited" areas like urban/suburban locations where ground-level ozone (i.e., “smogâ€) is most problematic.

 

Isn't funny that I have provided the source of my data, all my inputs (model, year, zip code, miles, features, condition, etc) so that anyone can go and check my numbers.

You on the other hand have made the blanket statement "I did a quick KBB check on 2003 TDI sedans and compared to a 2003 Prius. Difference was still ~$4,000 in Prius favor."

Then you accuse me of lying? (To be clear I take your accusation that I am distorting figures as an accusation of lying.)

I'll make it even easier for everyone - From KBB:
2003 Jetta GL TDI Sedan 90K - $12,945 2003 Volkswagen Jetta - Suggested Retail Value - Official Kelley Blue Book Site
2003 Jetta GL TDI Sedan 182K - $11,270 2003 Volkswagen Jetta - Suggested Retail Value - Official Kelley Blue Book Site
2003 Prius Sedan 90K - $11,470 2003 Toyota Prius - Suggested Retail Value - Official Kelley Blue Book Site
2003 Prius Sedan 182K - $9,795 2003 Toyota Prius - Suggested Retail Value - Official Kelley Blue Book Site

 

When the average car buyer cares about emission then car magazine will include emissions data in their reviews. Until then they will continue to ignore emissions.

As wxman pointed out, emissions are not so cut an dry and emissions classifications have little in common with actual measured emissions data. He has provided lots of good information on HC and Smog so I'll leave that topic

As I mentioned above the TDI-CR is limited to B5 in the US due to the complexity of the emission equipment. This has more to due with the lack of a standard formulation for biodiesel in the US than the actual ability of the vehicle to run on the fuel. VW's are rated for higher blends of biodiesel in Europe where there biodiesel is made to a standardized formulation.

My TDI doesn't have a NOx catalyst or a particulate filter so it runs just fine on B100. However, I've decided to leave the homebrewing to others and just use commercial B20 where it is available.

Bob,

You presented some good information over on TDIClub. While you may be content to seek your own happiness, I have a foot in both camps. The reality is that I get it from both sides.

 

In know you are trying to compare model year to model year, but wasn't 2003 the last year of gen 1 for the prius. Doesnt seem fair to compare an older gen model to your tdi. I honestly don't know if a 2003 tdi is an older gen model or not, but even if it was why not compare the oldest model year where both are the current generations available. I honestly dont know how it would turn out