Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Comparing the Touring to the TDI doesn't make sense to you because you don't value the handling advantage that the TDI shows. You would completely disregard the larger handling gap between the base Prius and TDI just as you do the smaller gap between the Touring and TDI.

You also seem to disregard poor ergonomics of the Prius and lack of adjustments to fix this. Maybe you fit in the Prius as it is but many of us don't.

I don't need convincing that buying the TDI was the right choice. So far I have enjoyed 183,000 miles of trouble-free driving in an incredibly versatile vehicle.

I'm already on the TDI forums defending hybrids from the vast amounts of misinformation and bias out there. (The battery needs to be replaced every 5 years, etc) My approach is the same there. The Prius is less expensive to operate but not nearly as nice a car to drive. It is a great car for A-B driving and carrying a variety of people and cargo.

The reality is the Prius could be a great car if Toyota put a little bit of effort into improving the handling. This would make it an even safer car as well.

 

Do you have the optional "Vehicle Stability Control (VSC)" in your Prius?

Thanks,
Bob Wilson

 

Whether a TDI or Prius, find a patch of ice (better go back to the abandoned parking lot again) . . . turn hard & hit the brakes. Enjoy the similarity in the way both cars slide right along. The fact that the TDI has less "mushy factor" in handling no longer matters. Here's the good news. We didn't get to drive the 2010 Prius at PCD, but I'll bet when it's released in a very short time, that steering difference between the 2 cars may very well suddenly so away.

 

JSH,

You are again using circular logic. You've arrived at a conclusion (like Edmunds) and are seeking a way to support it. The touring comparison only makes sense if your primary motivation is handling, not mileage or cost. The difference is in what the user is after. I'll repeat this a third time: comparing to the touring makes no sense. If the touring's handling is not perceived to be competitive then adding the cost for the comparison is not just pointless, it is intellectually dishonest.

The target buyer for the Prius is not one who values handling above all other things, so yes, I would disregard the larger handling gap, just as I disregard that between a Porsche and a Jetta. A well written/honest article would actually quantify such gaps rather than boring the reader with a page of superfluous fluff, then failing to quantify in the remainer. All this comparison does is intentionally stack the deck to give the TDI a "win" in categories it actually loses.

p.s. The Prius seating is just fine for me.

 

I'll do you one better. Find a stretch of dry pavement, with some irregularities (bumps). Stop straight in both the Prius and TDI. Enjoy as the Prius's ABS system can't figure out what to do and you continue to slide forward.

I've done that, on the same stretch of road with both my Prius and my Jetta. The Prius is the one that couldn't handle it.

There's no law against making a car that handles and stops well. Toyota, one day, will figure that out.

 

First, saying alcohol / drugs are the CAUSE of most accidents obfuscates the real cause of accidents. Drunks simply have improper control of their car, just as SPEED reduces control. All the bantering back & forth doesn't disprove that when driving slower (NOT the speed limit ... remember? that's supposed to be the MAX, not the minimum) a driver has more time to react. Driving slower means you don't HAVE to worry if your car has 14% less G force resistance.
Numerous tests of driver skill show that mediocre drivers think they have great driving skills (not a reference to your driving practice btw). From wikipedia:

One survey of drivers reported that they thought the key elements of good driving were:

• controlling a car including a good awareness of the car's size and capabilities
• reading and reacting to road conditions, weather, road signs and the environment
• alertness, reading and anticipating the behaviour of other drivers.

Although proficiency in these (driving) skills is taught and tested as part of the driving exam, a 'good' driver can still be at a high risk of accidents because:

"the feeling of being confident in more and more challenging situations is experienced as evidence of driving ability, and that 'proven' ability reinforces the feelings of confidence. Confidence feeds itself and grows unchecked until something happens – a near-miss or an accident".
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So yes, speed kills, but often it's because of the false belief the driver has it all together. Johnnycat tells of driving over bumps and 'loosing it' ... gee, I wonder if he'd have needed to hit the brakes if he'd been driving slower. Here's a good read on speed:

A few sober notes on speed and accidents Road Safety & Arrive Alive Blog

​

 

Just a quick note... I was doing under the speed limit and slowing for a yellow light. Hardly ripping it up.

 

And the car refused to stop, causing you to slide out into the intersection and be killed by a semi? I'm guessing not. The ABS system did exactly what it was supposed to. It sensed that you were in danger of losing traction, and modulated the brake pressure to make sure you were able to stop safely. Thats what its there for.

Rob

 

My point is, and I realize it can be confusing without actually reading all of the posts... the Prius has this weird "sliding" motion when the ABS is active that the Jetta doesn't. I'd wager, actually, that most cars don't slide when the ABS is active on uneven ground, but that's just me.

Doing the same thing when it's wet will cause the tail of the Prius to swing out. Again, doesn't happen in a Jetta, or any other car that I'm aware of.

Again, this is all at legal and below legal speeds, usually when I have to stop for this particular traffic light.

 

Yes, my Prius has VSC.

Shawn,

You have now explained why you don't value the adjustable seats and steering wheel in the TDI, the Prius fits you fine. The Prius doesn't fit me.

• The steering wheel is too low even in the highest setting
• If I set the seat so the steering wheel is the right distance than my legs are too close to the pedals. (Knee hits the shifter if I'm not careful) If I set the seat for my legs then the steering wheel is too far away.
• The seat is too high making it hard to see overhead lights and putting the rearview mirror directly in my line of sight and blocking forward vision. (I've turn the mirror upside down to move it upward)
• The seats are flat without any side bolster
• The seats lack lumbar support

The Touring suspension itself only costs ~$500 more than a similarly equipped Base model. Base is $23,375 / Touring is $24,270 (Touring adds suspension, fog lights, HID lights, and a different spoiler) The navigation system, HID, and fog lights add cost but Toyota packages the these features with leather seating. You can blame Toyota for the extra cost not Edmunds. If Edmunds had selected a Base Prius instead of the Touring they will still have added NAV and HID to get a decent stereo and leather seats.

What it comes down to is that you get a lot more creature comforts for a lot less with the Jetta TDI. Navigation adds $1800 to the Jetta that would take the TDI price to $25,990 still ~$3K less than the Prius. Take out $500 for the Touring suspension and the TDI is still $2500 less.

 

So does VSC do any good?

Bob Wilson

 

Not only that, but for proper operation of the NOx Catalyst, it requires the engine to periodically burn extra fuel simply to raise exhaust temperatures to get the NOx Catalyst to "burn off" the NOx. This also decreases fuel economy.

The only time I've come close to breaking traction (and thus inducing understeer) in the Prius is when the roads are slick. And then, the Prius handled as I expected, with moderate understeer (I'm sure I could get the tail to wag with an emergency lane change maneuver). Even with spirited mountain driving I've never found it safe to get to the point where the tires start making noise (and thus are slipping). And yes, I do have a decent amount of experience driving vehicles at (or past) the limit.

I've never found the body roll to be a big issue in the Prius. And my other car is a WRX with stiffer suspension where there is minimal body roll.

All reports indicate that this is much improved in the 2010 model along with improved ergonomics thanks to a height adjustable seat and telescoping steering wheel.

 

Yes VSC performs well. Stability control system can do things that a driver cannot; brake each wheel individually.

Installing stability control on a poor handling vehicle will improve the safety of that vehicle. It does not erase the underlying issue of poor vehicle dynamics. It would be far better to address the handling issues AND install stability control.

In short, a good handling car with stability control is safer than a poor handling car with stability control.

This is no different then the fact that a good handling car is safer at 45 mph than a poor handling car at 45 mph.

 

The Prius is a pretty different kind of car. Sometimes it does feel different. Ultimately thats kind of irrelevant compared to whether or not it stops safely. Edmunds found the Prius stopped a little faster than the TDI from either 60mph (6' sooner) or 30mph (1' sooner). It did slightly worse on the slalom (1.7mpg slower) and skid pad (0.1g less). Edmunds rated both cars as "average" with regards to handling and braking, so it seems unlikely either car has any significant safety advantage in this regard. I've never experienced the rear end of the Prius swinging out under any circumstances, or heard anyone else here on PC describe a similar event. If anything I believe the Prius is predisposed to understeer as JSH indicated.

So, it sounds to me like you are saying the Prius exhibits handling characteristics that make it safer in the hands of an average driver who doesn't have any special training in accident avoidance. The vehicle is pre-disposed to understeer, which is the safer way to lose control, and then the VSC does a pretty good job of keeping you from actually losing control.

Even if their intention was to use the Touring to better match handling characteristics using a $29,000 package 6 is still ridiculous. As you point out the Touring starts at $24k. Just because the TDI has vinyl seats, I don't see how that justifies adding a $5k package to the Prius. I'd say the base Touring and TDI are pretty well matched feature wise, although you could probably make a good argument for taking the sunroof off the TDI as its equally irrelevant.

 

It may also be worth noting that according to auto-trader you should be able to get about $2500 off MSRP on a Prius Touring right now.

 

Yes, driving slower gives you more time to react. (Basic physics) Yes, reducing speed reduces the severity of injuries. (Again basic physics: lower speed = lower energy) I don't disagree with these points (Not arguing against laws of physics)

I do disagree with your stance that if we all slow down vehicle dynamics no longer matter. A better handling car will always be safer than a poorer handling car. Having an extra 14% g force available gives you a 14% larger margin of safety.

Here are the most current accident statistics I could find:
Department for Transport - Road Casualties Great Britain: 2005

Key points from the accompanying article on contributory factors to road accidents are:

Failed to look properly was the most frequently reported contributory factor and was involved in 32 per cent of all accidents. Five of the six most frequently reported contributory factors were some kind of driver or rider error or reaction. For fatal accidents the most frequently reported contributory factor was loss of control, which was involved in 35 per cent of fatal accidents.

Exceeding the speed limit or going too fast for conditions were reported as a contributory factor in 15 per cent of all accidents. However, the factor became more significant with the severity of the accident; it was reported as contributory factor in 26 per cent of fatal accidents and these accidents accounted for 28 per cent of all fatalities (793 deaths).

The accompanying article on Contributory Factors:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme5/contributoryfactorstoroadacc.pdf

 

Didn't say that. The 'slow down' emphasis is simply a reminder that (coupled w/ many folks belief that their emergency driving skills are more than they believe) the edmunds / CR emphasis on zippy handling is simply their take ... their view, and such zippy handling leads a lot of those over confident drivers that think more of their emergency skill than they ought, to lust for that feature ... just like many used to lust for SUV's. More weight used to be the benchmark for safe cars. Then the roll overs began.

 

Take it all out as I don't have or need any of that.

Game over. All your base are belong to us.

 

I still have to side with hill on the more fun to drive generally equals more dangerous discussion. Last numbers I had seen about 5-6 times more people die driving Corvettes than Camrys on a normalized basis. I doubt few would argue the Corvettes superior handling and performance, but that is often overcome by a drivers desire to have more fun in a car that is more fun to drive.

Rob

 

1) What does "All your base are belong to us" mean?


2) How about your car vs. a base TDI?

• Base Prius Package #2: $23,370 (MSRP) + $175 (#2) + $720 (Destination) = $24,270
• Jetta TDI (6AM): $23,370 (MSRP) + $700 (Destination) = $24,070

Uh-Oh, we have a problem, the TDI is still $200 less expensive!

Of course you may say you don't need the Base Prius. Who really needs fancy luxuries like: cruise control, cargo cover, heated mirrors, and VSC? (All standard features on a TDI with the exception of a cargo cover) I'll say "who needs an automatic transmission, real men shift their own gears". We'll assume that the buyer makes too much money to get a tax credit and ignore the factory incentives being offered on both vehicles.

• Standard Prius: $22,000 (MSRP) + $720 (Destination) = $22,720
• Jetta TDI (6M): $22,270 (MSRP) + $700 (Destination) = $22,970

You're right, the Prius is $250 cheaper, so it must be better. :thumb: