Comparison Test: 2009 Toyota Prius vs. 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI

Your right, of course. The TDI is much better if you're speeding. No debating that. I wish you, Edmunds, et al luck in that endeavor. Sadly, a large contingent of the U.S. has the same mind set. I wonder ... was it 'hard cornering' that the folks on Easter Island were more concerned with, above all else? They certainly weren't worried about using up all the resources on the island, to the point they didn't have any lumber to sail off somewhere else to waste resources. You're right, of course, who in their right mind would want to put fuel economy, and efficiency, leaving resources for our children, and the environment above all else. That's way too boring. We might as well follow the example of other cultures.

 

Couple weeks ago I drove at least 200 miles on very windy backroads, 2-lane roads. I was pretty close to the speed limit and felt comfortable cornering.

Trouble is, you get what I think are 'locals' that know the road very well. I needed to pull over into turnouts, sometimes bumpy ones, about 5 times on one long road. I was passed up by some lady in a Honda Odeyssey minivan. That was a drag. Must have been a local.

Later on in the trip, I thought the Prius handled decently on the gentler curves. Was amping it up a little with a C6 Vette behind.

Not to brag, but I've ridden sport bikes (motorcycles) on Bay Area backroads, some really nasty, steep, sharp corners for years, among club racers as well.

I suppose eventually I would like a car that is more composed on challenging backroads.

Many reviewers seem to prefer Hondas, Mazdas, and VW's over most Toyotas for handling and being 'exciting to drive'.

Apparently the Honda Civic Hybrid has more agile handling than a Prius. I don't know how folks put up with the HCH 13 second 0 to 60 time though. Ewwww.

 

I see where you're coming from hill.

Best thing is to present ordinary people a car with -

* attractive, updated styling

* Comfortable seating for 4 or 5 people. Must have comfortable seating for many different size drivers.

* Agile handling, even on the occasional backroad, mountainous road

* Adequate power (and a little more) to safely merge onto a highway in front of the inconsiderate, but fast vehicle, while carrying your precious cargo (i.e. your children).

....

and this car happens to average - 50 MPG
and produces 70% fewer smog forming emissions
etc...

Hopefully all the above is in the Gen3 Prius.

Can't win everyone over with 'You must be a responsible person and care about the environment through your car purchase and driving habits.'

 

"For our money and driving pleasure, we choose the 2009 Volkswagen Jetta TDI over the 2009 Toyota Prius Touring. Of course, all that could change in a month or so once we get our hands on a 2010 Toyota Prius which is said to be more powerful, more efficient and up-to-date in terms of infotainment."

mmmm so the current prius is not up to date on infotainment? and the current 2009 jetta is?
ever seen a VW dashboard that's got any infotaiment... its more a boreddomtainment centre console with all the VW's

and now look at this picture



i think you can clearly see that the seat rails are exposed and the armrest is to far to the back.
so in this picture the front seats are all the way to the front of the car.

so it looks like the back seat leg room is BIG! but this jetta got a lot LESS leg room then the prius IN REAL LIFE

 

But those AC vents in the back just make the car something special don't they? I'd rather have them than climate control.
Does your VW have plastic seats or leatherette?

I'm sure it is a really nice car actually.

 

On the flipside Dutchman is ...

Toyota designs Prius driver's seat that slides so far forward that, seemingly, a 5-year old could not fit into it.



Then only slides back marginally far to guarantee overabundant rear seat legroom at the expense of compromising the more important driver's seat legroom for tall people.



Then they forget that tall people need to get lower in the car to get this item out of their view without flipping it upside down. And for some inexplicable reason they give the seat height adjuster to the Japan, European and Australian markets, at least, but not to the US/Canadian market.



And we wait until end of May of year 2009 for these things and more to be fixed.

 

concise, insightful, well thought out...excellent post
AND
cycledrum:

as far as a seat that slides "so far forward not even a 5 yr old could fit"

my dearly departed Mother, was 4'9" and had "special" driving shoes (actually about 20 pairs!!) that had humongous platform heels on them and she was one of the people who slid the seat as far forward as she could (at one time she had an ancient Toyota Crown Station wagon my dad had to modify the seat because it would not slide far enough forward for her!!)

but she had to do this because her arms and legs were too short... and yes she is of Asian decent... so before you start talking about your personal needs and the "idiot engineers" and why they did what they did... just remember that you share this world with 8 billion other people and most of them could not care less about you

 

I'm sorry to offend your Mother. I didn't think anyone could fit into the seat all the way forward, but you've proved me wrong.

 

no problem... personally, i was amazed that she preferred it that way and am glad she never got into a serious accident because there was literally less than an inch from the steering wheel to her chest. she would have been seriously injured with airbag deployment.

 

Or driving normally.

No debating that.

 

I don't get you hill, you seem to believe that as long as one drives the speed limit nothing bad could ever happen to you. Regardless of what you do other people and events can kill you, to believe otherwise is to live is a fantasy. Let me relay a past experience of what can happen even if you are driving the speed limit.

About 3 years ago my wife and I were driving to the airport in our Jetta at 4:30 am on a 4 lane divided highway. I had the cruise control set to the speed limit, 55 mph, and was driving in the inside lane. We as we approached a cross road a truck pulled up the the intersection and stopped. This was ~ 1/4 mile ahead. The truck waited at the intersection without any indication of moving. Then when we were ~ 100 feet from the intersection the truck suddenly pulled out into the road, panicked, and stopped blocking my lane and most of the second lane of the highway. This was close enough that I could see his look of panic in my headlights as he realized he was about to get hit at 55 mph. I had been covering the brake as I always do when other vehicles are around but had to choose; brake or swerve?

I instinctually swerved around the truck and into the median (which was paved to allow for the intersection and then back onto the road to prevent us from going into the grassy median which was not flat but a shallow ditch. The Jetta handled this fine with only a minor wag of the tail swerving left then a slightly larger tail wag coming back right. I instinctively counter-steered to correct for the sliding. All of this happened within a second but seemed like it was in slow motion. This was all done by instinct but not natural instinct it was a trained response for years of practice.

My mind and body knew what to do because when I was 15 my father took me out to empty parking lots early in the morning after a snowstorm and drilled me on stopping, swerving, modulating throttle, recovering from skids, etc. He thought is was important to teach my brother and I driving skills that the driving school didn't bother to teach but are absolutely vital for survival on the roads. We did this for years with me getting better and better at driving a car on the edge of control. As an adult I have taken this farther with autocross in cars, and some wheel to wheel racing on motorcycles. I have taken every vehicle I've ever owned to a safe area and practiced emergency stops and lane changes because it is important to know how your vehicle reacts in emergency situations. These activities have made me a better AND safer driver on the road. They have also made me slower and more careful driver and rider on the road. A spin in a car or crash on a motorcycle in controlled conditions brings the reality of what would happen if that nice run-off area on the track was replaced with trees, cars, and houses.

What is the point of all this? Active safety is just as important as passive safety. You never know when someone else is going to do something stupid that could kill you. In perfect conditions the Prius Touring can generate 0.71 g's while the Jetta TDI can generate 0.81 g's. That is a difference of 14% and can't be overcome by driving the speed limit. More importantly the driver needs to know how to respond. Electronic driver aids are great but they don't make up for a lack of driver skill.

I highly recommend you look for an autocross event in your area. These are very cheap, usually less than $50 and let you use your car. Nothing special is needed, just a helmet and most events have helmets available to borrow. Ask for an instructor or experienced driver to ride with you and give your some pointers. Ride with someone else and witness the amazing capabilities when driving skills come together with a good car. At a minimum you will learn something and you may even have fun doing it.

Most race courses have driving schools available as well. These are more expensive but you get much more seat time and a variety of skills and conditions. The Skip Barber school is $800 but that is less than the deductible on my car insurance and forms skills that transfer to any car driven. Welcome to the Premier Racing and Driving School, Skip Barber Racing School

 

That was a nice long story with presumptions. 1st, stat's show that slower driving causes/involves less slow drivers (NOT the MAX speed limit' BELOW the max) than fast ones. That's all i am saying. 2nd, I am not so dim witted to think drivers & car manufacturers will modify their thinking/actions because of that. And that's too bad imo. Lastly, I've logged untold hours in district 37 desert racing ... had lots of fun doing it, yet managed to be one of the few who never even broke a bone, unlike Jeremy Lusk (who I met) that just died, from overextending his trick riding.

 

I'm a bit confused by your post. Is it safe to assume that you meant slower drivers caused or are involved in less accidents than fast drivers and that we should all drive under the speed limit?

The studies that I have seen recently show that a very small portion of accidents are cause by excessive speed (~10% to 15%). The top categories I've seen are driving impaired by drugs or alcohol and failure to yield.

I'm also absolutely baffled that someone who has been involved in motorsports completely disregards the value of having a vehicle that handles better. A better performing vehicle is a safer vehicle at any speed.

There is also a huge difference is the risks associated with driving the speed limit and extreme tricks on a motocross bike. For those that don't know Jeremy Lusk recently died while participating a freestyle motocross event . He was attempting a "HART attack indian air backflip" which combines jumping a motorcycle 50 plus feet in the air, making the bike and rider do a complete back-flip, and dangling your legs and making a running motion while inverted.

Here is video of a failed attempt in 2007. (He walked away from this one)
[ame=http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2407519/jeremy_lusk_crashes_doing_hart_attack_indian_air_backflip/]Jeremy Lusk Crashes Doing Hart Attack Indian Air Backflip - Video[/ame]

 

Better handling + driver using better handling for higher speed rather than slowing to the conditions = greater terminal velocity.

 

Better handling + matching speed to condition = greater margin of error
Poor handling + matching speed to condition = lower margin of error

You assume that just because a vehicle has a greater margin of safety that a driver will always drive on the edge of that margin. Some do but many others don't. Having a better handling vehicle doesn't automatically make someone a more aggressive driver just as having a poor handling vehicle doesn't automatically make a person a conservative driver. All you have to do is look to the legions of SUV drivers driving like lunatics to see that people with incredibly poor handling vehicles can drive aggressively too.

You and Hill are confusing vehicle capability with driver attitude.

 

JSH:

- When talking about the TDI as "new" and the Prius as "old" I'm talking about the engine & emissions system. I thought you were the one telling me a while back how the new US TDI 2L was a completely new engine that had little to do with the Euro 2L thats been around for a while. At the time we were speculating about what the power/efficiency/emissions balance of the new TDI might be like based on what was available in Europe. Meanwhile the HSD is unchanged for the last 5 years, and more or less the same for the last 10. Since much of the discussion on PC is related to fuel efficiency and emissions, those are the systems most of us tend to focus on.

- I agree that handling is important. I also agree with hill that the more fun to drive a car is, the more aggressively and less safely many people tend to drive it. Despite its much better handling and traction, I was much less safe behind the wheel of my WRX than I am in the Prius. Regarding your comment about SUVs, people drive like idiots in Trucks/SUVs because they feel safer, it has nothing to do with the vehicle's actually handling characteristics. I'm glad you are a competent driver and realize that driving skill is often more important than vehicle characteristics when it comes to accident avoidance. From the way your TDI handled its pretty clear a less skilled driver would have lost control. Its interesting that the Prius in the Edmunds test did almost as well in the slalom and better in braking than the new TDI. We've also seen numerous anecdotal stories on PC about how well the Prius handled emergency maneuvers thanks to its ABS, TC and VSC systems coupled with its fairly nuetral/benign handling characteristics, with a number of members crediting the car with saving their lives. There have also been a number of reviews that mention how boring it is to try to thrash the Prius around as its very difficult to get it break traction. Its interesting you bring up the CR test, since both the new Jetta TDI and the old Prius Touring model get the same rating (VG) on CRs accident avoidance test. Its pretty clear to me Edmunds preference has nothing to with safety, they just find the Jetta more fun to drive. Thats fine, it probably is more fun to drive. I just wish they were a little more honest about it. I used to drive Saabs (pre-GM) and Land Rovers (pre-BMW/Ford) so I can certainly appreciate driving a quirky, unreliable vehicle thats fun to drive and/or very good at what its designed to do to some degree.

Rob

 

Well, *this* SUV driver is pretty careful in his SUV. Problem is, the vast majority of 4x4 drivers are *not* careful

Get this, I took my dad out to Timmies today (Provincial holiday, Louis Riel Day - guy was hung for treason way back when, now he's a bloody hero, so go figure) and when we walked back to the FJ - his hip was acting up so I took the FJ - this guy was looking over the tires on my Cruiser

I'm a big guy, and this fellow was pretty scrawny. So I asked him what the hell he was doing to my FJ. He wanted to know what kind of tires I had on, as he had never seen tires like that before

Told him they were Toyo Open Country G-02 Plus winter tires. He gave a funny look, and pointed to his Ford Expedition parked across the way

"You don't need winter tires, you have 4x4"



Whatever .... he was wise enough to scurry off before I gave him a comment that rhymes with "duck shoe."

 

This bears repeating:

The comparision with a touring made no sense. It would only make sense if you considered the handling equivalent or better. They don't, so they should have compared to a base model.

Poorly done, absurdly written review. I've come to expect this form the TDI fanboys though. They rarely disappoint.

It's just too bad they can't seem to convince themselves that they made the right decision with the Jetta. Hey, maybe we should start staging Priuschat raids into the Jetta clubs?

 

The combination of engine, injection system, and emission systems on the US 2.0 CR engine is new but only the NOx catalyst is actually new.

The injection system in my TDI is VW's original direct injection system. It was introduced in Europe in 1993 and used in the US from 1998-2003. In 1998, VW introduced PD-TDI (Pumpe-Düse) to the European market. PD-TDI didn't come to the US until 2004 and was used until 2006. VW introduced a new CR (common-rail) injection system in the European market in 2007 as they began to transition from PD to CR due to emission reasons. The VW USA got CR for the first time with the 2.0 TDI CR used in the 2009 Jetta.

The 2.0L TDI with 4 valves per cylinder was introduced in Europe in 2005. It was first used in the US in the 2009 Jetta.

Particulate filters have been used in Europe for about a decade but they were only introduced in the US in 2006.

The NOx Catalyst is the real new technology from the 2009 VW TDI 2.0 CR. It is a entirely new system that captures NOx from the exhaust stream and converts it to N and O2. It is the emissions equivalent of a catalytic converter for a gasoline car. EU TDI's won't get the NOx Catalyst until 2011 or 2012 when the next round of Euro emissions regulations go into effect.

Because of the NOx Catalyst the emission characteristics of the US TDI are much different than the EU version. The EU and US tests are also different so comparisons of fuel economy between the two tests aren't very accurate.

I believe that people drive like idiots because they want to drive like idiots. You can put them in a Corvette, F150, Prius, or Yugo and they will drive like an idiot. It is a combination of willful disregard for others, inattention, and lack of training. Again, my opinion.

Owning the Prius has lead to me being a slower and more strategic driver in both the Prius and TDI. The reason is not that the Prius is so boring to drive but that it has the consumption screen to give instant feedback on how driving style effects fuel economy. I find myself using the same tricks in the TDI that I do in the Prius.

I can't comment on Consumer Reports actual test of the Prius because I don't subscribe to CR. I've found them to be lacking in important information and biased against domestic cars. I was simply pointing out to Hill that even CR cares about handling.

I don't find the Prius to be neutral handling at all. It's handling traits are dominated by large amounts of body roll and massive understeer. Yes the stability control fights the understeer by selectively applying individual brakes but the vehicle still understeers. Understeer is generally preferred because it is self recovering but really this is only a band-aid for lack of training. It is very easy to get the Prius to break traction. Simply go to an empty parking lot after it has rained an try to do an emergency lane change at moderate speed.

 

You don't even have to do anything that silly. There's a bumpy stretch of road near my house, and if I tried to stop with anything beyond moderate braking force, the rear of the car would swing loose. The ABS/Trac on the Prius is a band-aid for the poor chassis dynamics that seem inherent in the car.