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Post-reveal thoughts

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by hobbit, Feb 15, 2009.

  1. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    While I didn't make it to Detroit, I managed to figure out how to pull
    down big batches of everybody's pictures and went through them fairly
    carefully. That led to several questions and comments, as one might
    imagine. I'm posting this over here because I'd like the whole
    community to at least be thinking about some of these things, not
    just a small subset.
    .
    Powertrain
    .
    The inverter looks like that if you unbolt that one oddly L-shaped
    black cover, you get access to ALL the 3-phase motor and battery
    connections at once. Confirm, please? That's a nice layout for
    anyone going to remove the inverter.
    .
    It seems weird that they'd leave the mesh "basket" of shielding around
    the motor wires open to the underhood elements, rather than wrapping
    a secondary rubber shroud around it. That seems destined to be a
    real crap-catcher over the long haul.
    .
    What is the little block of electronics wedged in diagonally next to
    the inverter with several harness plugs into it? I hope they didn't
    choose to mount any ECUs out there in road-dirt land. Things like
    that *always* get crapped up and corroded.
    .
    I like that they put the brake-fluid reservoir over on the left where
    it belongs, near the rest of the brake system. Less hydraulic
    plumbing going across the firewall..
    .
    The new throttle-body and drive motor seems much more compact. And
    am I seeing it right that the post-throttle intake plenum is now
    plastic instead of metal?
    .
    The intake snorkel up to the air box looks pretty bulky and in the way
    of everything; would it be easily removable? For what it's worth,
    I have been running my '04 without the snorkel for years, just the
    airbox inlet open to the underhood air. Maybe that's why my warm-air
    intake experiments made so little difference, hmmm...
    .
    Can someone please explain exactly what the exhaust heat-recovery
    rig does? Where exactly is the exchanger in the coolant path, and
    what is the control-valve strategy [if any] around it? How does it
    help mitigate a dead-cold start, now that the "bottle" is gone?
    .
    Please confirm that the "naked" display unit has a deliberate big
    discontinuity in the exhaust system, i.e. the string of catalytics is
    completely displaced leftward from where they'd attach to the header?
    .
    Did anyone get a feeling for how much 12V power the electric water
    pump actually draws? Is there a variable-speed strategy for it, or
    does it just run all the time the engine's on? Does it run at times
    the engine *isn't* running, e.g. to help cabin heat like the aux
    pump does now in the 2nd-gen?
    .
    What is the deep channel visible on the front of the transaxle in
    the "naked" display? Does that get some sort of cover over it, like
    the pan on the Classic? Why is such an opening vertically aligned?
    .
    Inside and control
    .
    It looks like the major under-dash ECU connections behind the glovebox
    are mounted a little lower down, thus easier to get to. That's cool,
    will make diagnostic backpinning easier.
    .
    While the solar-powered ventilation thing is a great idea, I bet it
    won't deal well with the fact that the black *dash* acts like a big ol'
    greenhouse under that big windshield and likely collects way more
    heat than the vent system will be able to remove. Probably depends
    on how the airflow is routed through the car.
    .
    I like the fact that the same "finger dance" can bring up diagnostics
    on the screen. Now, how 'bout the ability to pull powertrain DTCs
    through that too? The screen ECU certainly has access to all the
    OBD-II data on the CANbus. Speaking of which, is it still 500 kb
    network data rate?
    .
    It's excellent that they've finally added something akin to a charge/
    assist meter. Any idea how well it reflects actual battery current
    in and out, or does it fake in other factors like the Honda ones?
    .
    The cars were clearly powered up at least to IG-ON mode to allow
    fooling with the controls, or did it make it all the way to READY?
    Or was READY disabled somehow, and if so how?
    .
    Does the eco/power mode switch ONLY change the throttle response
    curve, or other operating parameters too?
    .
    I'm definitely dubious about the larger center-console, as are many
    other people around the forums. Perhaps a mod-project will emerge
    down the road to cut pieces of that out and remount the shifter knob
    back up where it belongs...
    .
    Exterior
    .
    The headlight housings have an oddly bulbous bump out to the side;
    what's up with that as opposed to just matching a smooth contour
    into the side of the nose? Many other newer cars have this too,
    but the aesthetic was never clear to me.
    .
    Where's the big blinking "<-- GO AROUND" sign for the rear? [which
    of course would be "GO AROUND -->" across the pond]
    .
    Toyota and the show
    .
    It looked like they brought in a bunch of big setpieces and put them
    up for this, in the room with the nice wood floor. What was the
    regularly-spaced sort of "rack" with all the purple light behind it?
    .
    The spinning "propellers" on the video behind the reveal were a
    bit odd, and I was trying to figure out what they had to do with
    the Prius.
    .
    How close to finished is the service documentation? When the New Car
    Features document set is done for this, it would be awesome to get a
    copy to read. That would probably explain quite a few of these things.
    I sorta wish they threw the thing up on a lift for y'all to peer under.
    .
    _H*
     
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Hobbit, I'll try to tackle a few of these later, it would help if you'd embed the pictures associated with the (many) things you're referencing.

    But yes, that is the engine ECU under the hood now...we asked that in Detroit.
     
  3. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi Hobbit,

    With the headlights, I think they are blending them into the raised outer fender contours. Find a picture dead on from the front, and looking up the hood. There are raised contours to the outside. This is actually like the Renault Meganne (Sp?). Not the headlights, but the raised outer countours. I think the purpose is to maintain laminar flow down the side of the fenders, and avoid spill over of air from the hood sideways (which would tumble). It may also reduce the flow into the mirror area.
     
  4. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    I hope I got all the links right to these pictures. Problem is
    that I bulk-downloaded my own copies and had to go back and look
    through a pile for what I was talking about, pull the filenames,
    and find the full URL paths in the input files to the bulk download.
    But at least I still had all that info sitting around. Let me
    say once again for the record that Picasa blows.
    .
    Here's what I mean about the inverter cover, from htmlspinnr:
    http://lh5.ggpht.com/_ew0L-V8SdRE/SXDcJd63E1I/AAAAAAAACUo/AIIOOkNKBu4/P1000924.JPG
    the black three-and-some lobed cover appears to be over all the
    high-power connection points. That's a nicer layout than three
    separate places, and implies that you can disconnect and remove
    the inverter without taking the big *main* cover off.
    .
    The wire "baskets" shielding said high-power connections look
    like they'll suck up road dirt like nobody's business:
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3083/3192993225_20619fff3b_b.jpg
    from efusco's set.
    .
    The "pit" in the tranny that looks like it gets a cover is pretty
    obvious in another efusco shot:
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3448/3193832546_a8ba0a14ec_b.jpg
    It's a flat planar rim, it's got bolt holes all around, and totally
    looks like something that gets a gasket and a pan over it. Do the
    passages go deep inside the housing, i.e. does transmission fluid
    pass through there in some fashion?
    .
    The purple "racks" behind the display area are obvious in another
    htmlspinnr shot:
    http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ew0L-V8SdRE/SXDblKp7zaI/AAAAAAAACUU/nhagX84RO3E/P1000922.JPG
    What was that wall made of?
    .
    Hanging something like this out under the hood to get all splashed
    up with road salt is not a good idea, as nailed by efusco in his
    exploration of underhood parts:
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3474/3193843782_e897375156_b.jpg
    Ford made this same mistake with the Escape. What's wrong with
    stashing it INSIDE behind the glovebox as done very sensibly in the
    2nd-gen?? The harness wires don't get *that* much longer between ECU
    and controlled object, and all the critical noise-sensitive stuff is
    shielded anyways.
    .
    Finally, is this standard equipment?
    http://lh3.ggpht.com/_ew0L-V8SdRE/SXDb_t-8_eI/AAAAAAAACUc/1_oocnE41O0/P1000923.JPG
    .
    _H*
     
  5. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    Oh, another fun one -- this frame from the 188-megabyte
    monster video of the reveal, I think it was from Toyota:

    [​IMG]

    ... c'mon, dudes, put some AIR in those tires!
    .
    _H*
     
  6. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Hi Hobbit,

    I wasn't able to open up the htmlspinnr photo links.

    Since the models on display are pre-production, hopefully the production vehicles will have better cabling. I agree that the inverter cable shielding looks like a dirt trap and also appears quite fragile. The engine ECU wire harness connector closest to the front of the vehicle has individual wires exposed, and that certainly will lead to problems when water, dirt and worse land on top and seep down.

    It does appear that the 2010 inverter cables will be easier to remove compared to Classic and 2G.

    It was possible to make the cars READY, but this was frowned upon given that the cars were indoors.

    My guess is that inverter coolant will flow through the transaxle pit that you identified, but I did not look under the front of the vehicle to verify what plumbing was attached there.

    The ECO/PWR switch changes throttle response for the first 50% of accelerator pedal travel. No other parameters change.

    Yes, the exhaust system was moved to the left, probably to make room for the video screen located in the center of the display. The exhaust heat recirculation system heat exchanger is located immediately downstream from the two inline catalytic converters. The point of this is to provide rapid heating of engine coolant, replacing the current canister system. It is unclear what logic will govern the flow of coolant through this system.

    I understand that the NCF manual draft is being reviewed by TMS USA staff but they are not ready to release that document yet.
     
  7. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    I'll field a couple.
    the eco power mode affects the first half of throttle making the response much less in eco mode than in power. At full throttle the same power is available in either mode. EV works just like it does now in cars fitted with it.

    I put my foot on the brake in the blue car and pressed the power button and it went into ready mode. There was no lockout.

    I thought my inlet manifold was plastic?

    No need for a go around sign now with all that extra power and better economy.

    I got the feeling the deep groove up the front of the transmission was a cooling passage which had the cover off.

    That tyre only looks half flat, that guy in the driver's seat was really fat!!

    The spinning propellers were wind turbines, because it's green.
     
  8. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    YES, someone with serious cred is willing to call out Toyota on this one! Thanks Hobbit!!! I REALLY want Toyota to go back to 'ergonomics and function' first. Bright blue, over-sized, spot lighted knobs you rarely touch that are in the way of reaching other controls you may use more often doesn't cut it.

    Regarding moving 'sensitive stuff' under the hood (bonnet), maybe they figured that the full 'shield' under the engine compartment will be enough 'protection'? Seems like a potential problem area to me as well.
     
  9. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    I like the new location, but then I have no serious cred! :D In my 04, I was always accidentally bumping it or grabbing the wrong stalk. This seems like a nice compromise between the GEN II location, which added to valet and newbie confusion on how to drive it, and the HyCam, where they used the same traditional shifter as the regular Camry (one the things I really don't like in the HyCam).
     
  10. bruceha_2000

    bruceha_2000 Senior Member

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    Curious, never had either problem though a friend who is 6'6" (I'm a mere 6'2") finds the shifter too close to his knee and would prefer it not stick out from the dash as far. That doesn't mean he likes the new location. The arch looks to be a 'tall person' knee and thigh problem unless the longer seat travel lets taller people have less knee bend than in the Gen II. It is still an abominable waste of space that cost us the storage space under the radio and (though I've not seen confirmation) the drawer under the center console.

    And I agree with the Camry thing. I had the silly expectation that all the good new things in the Prius would have been carried over to the Camry Hybrid. Then they put a standard straight line shifter in even though it has no physical connection to the transmission. Instant deflation of expectations :( That, among other things such as mileage that COULD have been near that of the Prius.
     
  11. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Highlander Hybrid also has a "standard" gear selector lever. I think the non-Prius owning population may find the 2G Prius gear selector to be too strange, more like a video game control refugee, than a control intended for an automobile.
     
  12. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

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  13. Doc Willie

    Doc Willie Shuttlecraft Commander

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    Questions only a techie would ask.

    The rack with the purple lights behind I think was not part of their set. IIRC it went up to the ceiling, and was the wall of the building. I have not seen any hints of it in the reveal outside of Detroit. I think it was a set of black angled slats. Whether they were movable like venetian blind I do not know. OTOH, I have been unable to find this wall in any of the pictures of the Max M Fisher hall online, so what do I know?

    The spinning propellers I think were meant to evoke windmills. I seem to recall seeing modern wind generators in one of the sequences.
     
  14. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    The rack with purple lights is a storage shelf for seating. It contained a bunch of folding chairs. When the venue is used for music the chairs come down and go on the floor, otherwise they are used for decoration.

    Tom
     
  15. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    I liked the new bridge console, but I have no cred what so ever and short legs like a normal person. Even with my short arms (which nicely match my short legs) I had no trouble reaching all the controls in the 2010 Prius around and over the "gear" stick.
     
  16. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    There's an extra inch of travel
     
  17. FireEngineer

    FireEngineer Active Member

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    I see they have an oil cooler for the transaxle. This was not on the cut-a-way model nor did anyone dig enough under the car (I tried) to get some of those panels off and see the goodies.

    And I hope that exhaust diverter valve doesn't wind up like the Classic HC adsorber valves which were sticking with corrosion and costing $1,500 to replace the cat unit. Looking at replacing 2 cats and the recovery unit because of a stuck exhaust valve would be VERY expensive.

    Wayne
     
  18. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    I always thought a stacked column of rectangular buttons on the dash would have worked just as well or better (back to the sixties again), but nobody has ever agreed with me on that one. :rolleyes:
     
  19. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    A bit late to the post, but here's good links for the photos (hobbit - the direct links are dynamic and expire over time to prevent direct linking):

    Picasa Web Albums - HTMLSpinnr - Prius Connect... (P1000922.JPG)

    Appeared to be part of the building, and not brought by Toyota - wood w/ some funky lighting behind.

    Picasa Web Albums - HTMLSpinnr - Prius Connect...
    (P1000923.JPG)

    No, she's not, but she's very knowledgeable.

    Picasa Web Albums - HTMLSpinnr - Prius Connect...
    (P1000924.JPG)

    It would appear that way, but only the NCF or service manuals would confirm for sure.
     
  20. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    The heat exchanger is post catalytic converter (all of them), and during cold start, has a divert valve (ala first gen) to route warmer exhaust gases through a coolant heat exchanger. Once the coolant is at a set temp (don't know this yet), a divert valve then opens to allow exhaust gas to pass directly through, bypassing the heat exchanger.

    I have some concerns in really hot conditions - how is the coolant otherwise insulated from the exhaust flow to prevent the addition of undesired heat or possibly a boiling source?


    Yes, and the colored tubing was there for illustrative purposes. This was exclusively for the demo and intentionally disconnected.


    Looks alot like either tranny fluid or coolant galley. I'm curious too.

    One would still expect to have to use a sun shade and/or a dash cover. I use both in the 2004 and they do make a difference.

    The diag screen looked almost identical, and I'd guess only AVC-LAN DTC's at this point like before. I'll dig further if I make it to another event. Probably will have to wait for NCF for the CAN data rate, which I thought was 1Mbps vs 500kbps.


    In Detroit, some of us brought it all the way to ready, but then the engines were starting in a closed room, which was "bad". They had them in IG-ON mode for us, and powered the system w/ an external charge/power supply to keep from draining the 12V battery.

    Per the chief engineer, yes, and only for the first 50%. I suspect the NCF guide will truly reveal if anything else is altered. I'm hoping ECO feels a bit more like the 1st gen pedal response.


    This actually appeared to be part of the venue itself rather than something Toyota added. The blue lighting was all Toyota though.

    My guess - wind generation, ala alternate fuel?

    Hopefully others can add more to this, but I second the desire to get my hands on the NCF, and hope that Prius Team can make the complete PDF set available to us.

    -Rick