gen 1 prius for me?

Hi Jason,

Regarding #3, a rash of transaxle failures had been reported in the past, which has encouraged periodic transaxle fluid changes although this is not specified in the scheduled maintenance guide. However transaxle failures are not prominent in the poll that I have elsewhere in this forum:
http://priuschat.com/forums/generation-1-prius-discussion/45766-classic-prius-repairs.html

Regarding #4, with 120K miles on the odometer you should not be surprised if you need a new battery in 30K miles or less. You will have no warning - one day the car will be fine, the next day the instrument panel will light up like a Christmas tree.

However if you are comfortable with DIY repairs and can deal safely with high voltages, it is possible to purchase and install a salvage traction battery for ~$800 or so. If you have to rely upon a Toyota dealer then it will cost ~$3K for the part and associated labor.

Any used car with 120K miles is risky to purchase. A Prius with that many miles is much more risky due to the complex electronics and relative lack of non-dealer service alternatives in most parts of the US. If you become serious about purchasing a given vehicle I suggest you have the Prius tech expert at your local Toyota dealer inspect it, that is worth paying one or two hours of labor.

Good luck with your purchase decision.

 

Patrick and I mostly agree but I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts:

It is a common problem for tall folks. I remember reading some posts about seat rails mounts that move the seat back further. I haven't followed it closely but having taken out the passenger seat of my NHW11 (01-03), it looks to be a fairly simple modification. You might consider getting an NHW20 manual and or subscribing to the Toyota technical server long enough to download a manual showing how the seats come in and out.

Both the NHW20 and NHW11 share the same 42 mph limit on electric operation. In the case of my NHW11, I have to be on a downgrade to see EV at 41 mph. Promptly at 42 mph, the engine comes on. However, EV works quite normally at 38 mph and intermittently up until 42 mph. It is a question of how much motive power is needed. Even at 38 mph it occurs when you're on a level road at a steady speed and not fighting a head wind. It really is a question of rolling and aerodynamic drag that needs to be matched by vehicle thrust.

You can 'force charge' the battery and along with warm weather, you can get a little faster. The real problem is acceleration puts a heavier load on the system than the motor-battery system can provide and the engine is needed to provide the extra energy.

We don't have hard data. Near as we can tell, they have been shorts in the MG2 stator. I've seen reports of more 01 transaxle failures but the total number is so small, it is hard to say there is a pattern. For the best documented replacements, start with Arts Automotive.

There is one test that involves using a Toyota tester to measure the module pair voltages while loading the battery down and then charging it back up. It is intensive and what they are looking for is a 0.3 V. differential. However, this is a pretty lame test.

If you are thinking of a used Prius, the replacement battery now costs under $3,000. Just put that money aside or keep a weather eye out of a salvage battery. But it is a 'crap shoot.'

We know heat is the enemy and a lot of regeneration (aka., hills and high speeds) tends to wear the batteries earlier. However, the longest running NHW11 went over 320,000 miles on the original battery. The Dept. of Energy fleet vehicles went over 160,000 miles and Canadian taxis when over 200,000 km. There is no "expiration meter" on the traction battery ... or any other part.

If you decide to go with an NHW11, I would recommend:

1. have a backup vehicle - no used vehicle is going to be as reliable as a new one. So keep a klunker, even a fun one, for times when the other is down or in the shop.
2. self-maintenance - sweat equity keeps your costs down and the vehicle rolling. A set of metric tools, torque wench and Toyota maintenance manual and you're set.

If you decide to go with a used NHW20, the same advice applies. I also follow Consumer Reports advice, go with the last year of a model over the first year of the next model. What happens is early problems in a model are corrected at the factory in subsequent years. The first and part of the second year tend to have more of the 'latent' problems but this is a general trend.

Timing is important and Toyota is going to change Prius models with the 2010. What this means is the 2009 models, especially those at dealers when the new models show up, will be excellent buys. They'll have new car warranty and excellent price for the value. Best of all, there is a large pool of user knowledge about the NHW20s and what can be done with them.

I have over 60,000 miles on my used 2003, NHW11. With an average of 52.3 MPG, I've gotten everything expected. It has over 110,000 miles and still gives great service. The NHW20 would be an excellent replacement but I'll probably wait until the second year of the 2010 ... unless I get a really, really good deal. Our backup is a 2001 Echo with less than 30,000 miles that we'd bought new. We also have a 1994 Coachman RV, a Chevy G30 van body, that is slowly rusting in the driveway.

Bob Wilson

 

Hi Jason,

The Classic Prius will frequently run the gasoline engine in P, and this is explained as a way to calibrate the engine and hybrid vehicle control.

When you say "better" battery, do you mean a new battery of the same design, or do you mean a battery of improved capacity? If the latter, I am not aware that one is available for Classic.

When you say "plug up", do you mean charging the traction battery via AC house current? I am not aware of commercially available PHEV for Classic, although this is available for 2G at a five-digit price.

 

I'm a little confused. Your signature shows a 2008 Prius so the NHW11 you're looking at is a 'project' car?

I'm good with that but I need to understand the goal for the NHW11. As a backup, it is a fine vehicle. As an experimental vehicle, it is also an excellent choice. As a resale project, an 'investment', I think we're decades away from that but it can be a fun tinker.

Have you committed to buying it or still 'kicking the tires?'

To answer your question about "park" and the short engine run, I've seen it typically run for about 10-15 seconds before the engine stops again. You can shift back into "D" and it will stop instantly. In some cases, I've shifted into "N" to suppress engine start and set the parking brake to hold the car.

I don't think anyone has studied this momentary engine run when shifting into "P". It does seem brief and isn't consistent. This just means we don't know what triggers and suppresses it. So far, it seems of a fairly short 10-15 second duration.

If you decide to take on an NHW11 project car, my first recommendation is to get the Toyota maintenance manuals. You can order paper copies or subscribe to the technical service and download PDFs. We can go over additional items once you have it.

You might also head over to the YahooGroup "Prius Technical Stuff." There you'll find an impressive collection of photos, reports and datafiles for both NHW11 and NHW20 models. BTW, the folks who hang out there are either the authors of or appreciative audience of the photos, files and data records. Take a look around and the message archives and see if there is any interest.

Bob Wilson

 

Regarding a concern about battery life, I recommend getting the VIN # off the car(s) in question and calling a Toyota dealership to see if the battery has already been replaced (and at the same time, ask them what other work has been done, warranty related or out of warranty). If you find out your battery is only 2 years old and was replaced at 100,000 miles on a car that has 120,000 miles, you have a lot more breathing room.

In other words, call the dealer and see how much of this stuff may have already been done.

Overall, the Prius will have it's share of problems just like any other car, but it certainly didn't scare me from buying an '02 with 121,000 on it. The only thing I've had to replace so far was front brake pads and rotors. Oh, and I put a set of winter snow tires on a set of Honda steel wheels, but that doesn't count as an official repair. Considering this '02 Prius has saved me a little over $1000 in fuel costs over our previous car (which got 28mpg), I'd say it's paying for itself.

 

I recently bought a 2002 Prius at a non-Toyota dealer, I went in for a test drive, and all the pretty lights lit up. Long story short, we wound up taking it to a Toyota dealer, which resulted in a 3k repair job(at the non-Toyota dealer's tab)

The only thing I can recommend is having a dealer look at it.

 

Buying any car that is 6 to 9 years old will generate a lot of warnings. What has failed on the 01 to 03 Prius is described above. What has rarely failed is the engine. As your primary transportation (in outer Siberia) any ~7 year old car has risks. As local commuter transportation, I certainly feel good about the 2001 I'm still driving.

 

My used 2001 has been great so far. Nothing to complain about. It makes me happy to get in it and drive. Strange, I know. But I like it.

 

I suggest that you keep looking.

DTC P3009 means that there is a high voltage leak. The problem could be leaky electrolyte in the traction battery. It could be a faulty motor generator winding. Or it could be anywhere in between, such as the battery ECU, the battery cable, or the inverter.

If the transaxle is the problem then it will cost you well into four digits to repair. In that case you will not be happy having spent $6,500 to buy the car plus several thousand $s to replace the transaxle. See p. 4-12 of the following document:
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/Hybrid14.pdf

In general it is a really bad idea to buy a used Prius not covered by warranty, when you know that there is a problem but don't know exactly what the problem is. Presumably if the problem was easy and cheap to fix, then the seller would implement the fix rather than having to sell the car with trouble lights on.

 

This is probably a good idea if you are not into self-maintenance. It looks like a lot of problems in the 2001 were corrected by the 2003 and designed out of existence with the 2004-2009. But you are in the 'cat bird seat.'

With the 2010 becoming available this summer, you should soon see 2009 models for excellent prices with new car warranty. It is a fine hybrid with stellar performance compared to all others on the market.

In terms of cost:

• $7,000 - serviceable NHW11 (2001-03)
• $25,000 - new NHW20 (2004-09)

You have to weight this against the risks and potential costs associated with the NHW11:

• $3,500 - failed NHW11 battery, a function of vehicle usage and difficult to measure
• $3,500 - failed NHW11 transaxle, again, a function of vehicle usage
• $1,500 - failed steering assembly
• $400 - tires
• $800 - suspension struts

NHW11 risk factors:

1. high temperatures - heat is the enemy
2. higher speeds, >70 mph - heat is the enemy
3. hilly terrain - regeneration heat pumping battery
4. dusty areas - potential lubrication risks
5. 2001, early 2002 - accelerator encoder, throttle encoder, and steering encoder

It is a 'pay me now' or 'pay me later.' If you want a project car, the NHW11 is a lot of fun. If you are risk adverse and adverse to self-maintenance, a late model NHW20 is a better choice, avoid the 2004 model.

IMHO, the best Prius buy is one just past the 3/36000 mile warranty. You'll have plenty of coverage of the hybrid parts and get a good deal:

• 2005-06 - would be an excellent choice in the $15,000 range

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

My priorities would be: (1) most recent and; (2) battery. Most recent means you have the highest probability of all parts being in that vehicle. The battery would be the next since you are starting with a part that taken care of will last a very long time.

We believe they are the original style, not the better NHW20 models.

I have my own manuals, a full set of tools, and a spare vehicle. But as for buying one, I can not help you.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson