Why Electric Cars Have Stalled

Maybe they are keeping the UltraCaps under wraps because it's so big and they're afraid of competition. But in a field so full of vaporware, a company that demonstrates no product looks a lot like vaporware to me.

Additionally, the promise of a freeway-capable car in 2 years from a company without a lot of funding, using a technology that nobody has actually seen yet just does not have credibility. Consider what they have to do:

Actually demonstrate that their capacitor theory will work in practice. Develop mass-production methods. Construct the plant. Make enough capacitors. Build and test prototypes of the car. Build several units of the car in its final form, with its ultra-caps, and crash test them. Then actually build a plant to build the cars in volume.

The reason Zenn and Zap build NEVs and motorcycles, respectively, is that they lack the capitalization to crash-test regular cars. Tesla did it because they had big bucks from Silicon Valley investors. Hundreds of millions, I imagine. Where's Zenn going to come up with the funding to crash-test cars when their yearly sales volume is around 500 NEVs?

If they do build the City Car, it'll be in such high demand it'll be harder to get than an Aptera. And if it does what they say it will, and they build 500 a year, and there's no real competition yet, they'll be able to charge $60,000 for it just because of the large number of EV fanatics who want EVs badly enough we'll pay whatever we have to.

I hope they succeed, because we need this. But unless they can produce 100,000 cars a year they won't begin to satisfy the demand, and that means they'll be nearly impossible to get hold of. If you believe in them, better got on their waiting list early.

 

You're right, there is no way they are going to be able to pull all that off. They are either going to license an EEstor drive train to major oems or some larger company will swallow them whole and adopt the contract with EEstor.

 

Or EEstor is still no closer to reality then a sketch on a napkin. It looks like Daniel might have the right idea and a conversion as still our best chance at a fully function EV.

I have thought of doing a sidecar rig with the batteries in the car. It could be a fun little project and I have an extra motorcycle to play with.

 

actually a big part of their plans is licensing the technology to established auto manufacturers...

this is statement was released just after some independent lab testing on a process to create a chemical of specific shape and purity that would be required to manufacture a part of the capacitor

The Company is working with strategic OEMs to offer a ZENNergy™ drivetrain,
powered by EEStor, in various vehicle platforms as “Powered by ZENNergy” branded
vehicles. ZENNergy drive systems will also be developed for the conversion of existing
internal combustion vehicles to electric drive. The Company’s initial target for these
retrofit kits will be large, high-profile fleet opportunities.

iow, you are correct. the most likely way to get a highway capable EV is a conversion since such a vehicle from Zenn is probably at least 2 years of safety regulatory red tape away

 

So why would EEstor pick Zenn, a company with a sales volume of about 500 cars a year, to partner with? If EEstor is on the level, they'd have to do no more than produce an ultra-cap pack (a "battery" pack, as it were) and either market it or license it or sell the patent. They would not even need to build a car. This would be one "better mousetrap" that the world would indeed beat a path to their door to get ahold of.

In fact, cars would be only one of many applications for an ultra-cap pack. It makes sense for a car company to look for a better battery and be the first to market with an affordable mass-produced freeway-capable EV since GM crushed the EV-1. But it makes no sense for EEstor to limit itself by a commitment to a car company so small that it just does not have the capital, the experience, or the distribution network to move quickly to mass market. Getting lots of product to market fast means an earlier return on their investment, and earlier positive environmental impact.

I don't doubt that Zenn could do it. But not in the two years previously announced. If EEstor were on the level, Zenn would only hold them back. A major car maker would be the logical choice to partner with.

On the other hand, if EEstor is a scam, and they have nothing to show but a sample of a chemical which they assert, without real-world testing, will be a suitable dielectric for an ultra-cap, then no major company would deal with them, but tiny little Zenn would have nothing to lose and lots of publicity for their NEV to gain. When nothing comes of it, Zenn can just say "EEstor let us down." And until that time comes, EEstor can claim they are going to build the super EV with an existing car company.

I have a friend who drives a Zenn and it's a great car. I like it better than my Xebra except for the shorter range. But I don't believe the Zenn City Car with EEstor ultra-caps will beat the Zap Alias to market, and the Zap Alias is nothing but a drawing. Cars will float on mag-lev roads before the Zap Alias is on dealer lots.

 

I was hoping the explanation was (although I admit it is a stretch): Zenn was forward thinking and EEstor was strapped for cash and the major car oems turned EEstor down flat. Of course if the ultracap exists, then Zenn is going to be the luckiest middleman in the history of business. If EEstor doesn't produce something this year though we'll know it was a fraud.

 

Zenn is definitely forward-thinking: They're building EVs. But Zenn does not have the kind of money to fund EEstor, and as I said, if EEstor was on the level they would not need to partner with any car company. They could just build their ultra-cap and all sorts of buyers would flock to them.

 

But Zenn did give Eestor a few million or so.. with the option for more.

Hmmmm,.... Maybe Eestor executives thought that if they make licensing deals with small public companies that they could personally stock up on their licensee's company stock. The exclusivity of the deals means Zenn will skyrocket if the ultracap is real. Just wildy speculating.

 

I didn't realize this. It is my opinion that Zenn got scammed. Sadly, it is easy for people who do not understand science to be scammed in the field of technology. Look at all the water-for-hydrogen scams, and the persistence of belief in them. How much more so with something that is actually possible (very high-value capacitors). Sigh!

Note: I hope I'm wrong. I would so love to see Zenn succeed with the City Car!

 

As an engineer, even if Eestor can manufacture the Ultracap in volume,
it will be more expensive than the Li ion battery cell per kWh at todays price. Second the power density is also lower.

The only advantage is much higher charge discharged cycles and possible lower lost, which still need to be seen. The inverter will also has to tolerate a much wider input voltage range, meaning more expensive design.

I will say it is a hype.

 

If someone does come up with an ultra-cap, and EEstor is only one of several companies working on it, it remains to be seen what the specs and price will be. I don't think we can assume they will necessarily be more expensive than lithium batteries.

 

I have no idea if it is real but it is supposed to have more power density and be cheaper that Li ion.

And one of the main advantages is that it will not wear out!

Still, they have to put up or shut up by the fall or I'm taking my ball and going home.

 

Li Ion battery is costing from $1-$2 per Wh.
Today's best ultra cap is costing about $25 - $50 per Wh.

It would be a long long time before ultra cap will be cost parity with Li Ion
battery or it will never.

 

It is an electrolytic capacitor, same as battery the electrolyte will deteriorate and cycle time is rated about 500,000 to 1,000,000, not unlimited.

Maxwell Technologies: Ultracapacitors - MC Series

Energy density for UltraCap is ~4wh/kg.
Lead Acid battery is ~40wh/kg
Li Ion battery is ~200wh/kg

 

500,000 to 1,000,000 might as well be infinite. Stop pulling gnat sh!t out of pepper!

 

Widely reported:

from google and specifically EEStor Battery Ultracapacitor - Storage

 

Don't get excited. I assume you are not an engineer.

 

This is what they claimed. Do they have test data to support the claim?

 

No, but I can divide 365 into one million easily enough!

 

Yeah, that's what they claim. Amazing eh?

Hopefully it isn't all theoretical and they really have a working prototype - although if they do, only a handful of eyeballs have seen it.