While 48 mpg may be nice, hybrids don't add up right now

I love your argument and point of view, except for one minor detail: the part about ROI. I don't think anyone in this world (except for filthy rich buyers of collector cars) purchases a vehicle as an investment. I think Cost of Ownership is a better term. But unfortunately, even most budget-conscience buyers think more in terms of The Now, rather than in The Later ("can my budget afford this right now?").

 

Would that be the 1.6 litre Ti-VCT (Twin Independent Variable Camshaft Timing) engine?

UK Fuel Economy Results - Fiesta 1.6 Ti-VCT 5-speed manual
UK Fuel Economy Results - Toyota Prius NHW20

Headline figures: Fiesta 47.9mpg (Imperial) combined, Prius 65.7mpg combined, Prius uses 73% of the fuel that Fiesta does, or, alternatively, Fiesta uses 37% more fuel. Don't convert these figures to US gallons and try to compare with US test results, which is what I think you've done, as the testing schemes are completely different.

The 60hp 1.25 litre engined car is the best petrol model in terms of economy, managing 52.3mpg, but it's glacially slow - 16.9 seconds to 62mph compared to the Prius 10.9 seconds.

There is a Fiesta that beats the Prius on fuel economy (even after factoring in the greater energy content of diesel fuel) and CO2 emissions, but it's the 1.6 litre diesel with particulate filter.

If the percentage improvement claimed by Toyota for the new car is carried over, I expect it to get very, very close to the Fiesta.

 

My Prius is rude when I drive 45mph on the #1 lane on a 65mph freeway.
My Prius is rude when I drive 25mph on a two lane 45mph highway.
My Prius is rude when I drive 15mph on a 30mph city street.

If someone honks or blinks the brights at me, I will flag him down and tell him I have the damn right to drive at what speed I like.

 

Buying a hybrid when the gas is "only" $2 makes perfect sense. When the gas gets back up to $4,5 or more, the dealer gouging starts. $2 gas means a glut of fuel efficient cars, less dealer gouging and increased incentives. I've seen Prius in LA area for $3000 off sticker now that gas is "down". These same dealers had waiting lists, at MSRP or above at higher gas prices. The inverse works for gas hog SUVs, when gas goes over $5 there will be lots of deals on them (if anyone cares).

 

I guess that is another way to look at it.

I think people generally look at the initial cost of the 'same' car one being a hybrid, one not and the 'mileage' value of one over the other. Civic vs Hybrid Civic as an example.

But I can certainly agree with your point. If the purchase price differential is maintained upon sale of the used hybrid with the same number of miles and in the same condition as the non hybrid, there is no premium. For those that buy on time, the hybrid might have to sell a bit higher since it has more financing costs. On the other hand, there are other 'hybrid' cost benefits, such as lower registration costs in some states, that save the buyer annually.

 

Except that the Prius is a fair bit bigger, no?? The Fiesta would have to have the SAME amenities and mileage HIGHER than a Prius equivalent to the size differential to be 'comparable'. Or at least see what amenities you are losing for the cost differential.

 

It will not recover all the premium when you sell the car, may be a proportional portion of it. As the car gets older or approaching 100K miles, it will become negative, i.e. it will become a liability as the battery is getting out of warranty. It will be much harder to sell even at the same price of a non-hybrid equivalent car.

I would not count on higher resale value of the hybrid for making a purchasing decision rather than the cost of ownership.

 

the only thing that amazes me more than the fact that these types of articles still exist is that ANYONE would take the time to read one

 

That ain't right:
Can Driving too Slow Get You a Ticket? Slow drivers are a hazard. You have the right to try and get good mileage, but you don't have the right to endanger drivers moving at the posted speed.

Unless of course you were joking.

 

True..

As you mentioned, and was noted previously, vehicles are not investments they are depreciating assets that with few exceptions will be worthless at the end of their lives. Substituting the word 'Value' for 'ROI' would probably be more accurate.

 

In addition to that, might I add, that you do NOT have the "right" to drive at all, driving is a privilege, not a right. You have the "right" to purchase a vehicle, but without the privilege to drive it, you have a nice lawn ornament. Driving at half under the posted speed limit is a danger to others, and has been a factor in many accidents and deaths across the country, so please tell us you were joking and really not being a hazard on the roads. :focus:

As far as ROI, the Prius has held that record for me, I actually earned money when I traded the Prius in on something more practical for us. I kept hearing this ad on the radio with some women who thinks she is smarter than her son saying her car was an investment, and other than Hybrids, and classic cars, that is such a lie. Hybrids truly hold their value at this moment, I can basically flip my TCH, pay off the loan and maybe even have some cash on hand afterwards. If you are a good negotiator, you can get a Hybrid at nearly the price of a non hybrid. I got mine for a little under $200 over the sticker on the car, and that was with no trade, included tax, title, new plates, and all dealer fees. When you break it all down I paid just a little over invoice for it, but I am not selling or trading this one, I like this car far more than the Prius, its practical, and does everything I need a car to do unless the whole family needs to go somewhere or I need to get bulk items, for that I have the Veracruz. In 8 months time I have put on 18600 miles, and not had a single incident with the car, not one. My maintenance costs have been low since I use Synthetics and oil analysis, I have had only 1 oil change, which I am due for the second one shortly. That also is keeping waste oil out of the environment. I keep records of all gas purchases for all my vehicles, with miles, gallons and cost, and the Camry definitely is cost efficient compared to other cars of its size and nature. A NOTE to add to this, the Prius is not the same class as the Camry, you cannot compare the two to each other. The closest comparison would be something like the Ford Focus, which is very close to the same interior dimensions, the Corrola and Civic are smaller, so you cant compare to those either. Other than leg room in the back seat, and more luggage space, the prius is cramped for room, once two car seats are installed, there is no more space in the rear seat for a third child, and front leg room is lacking without having a telescoping steering wheel. These are factors that the Camry has over the prius, I can fit a third child between the car seats, and I have plenty of front leg room, and my knees no longer hit the dash. Handling and traction is far superior over the prius, and the windows stay clear in very cold weather. All of those factors made me not like the Prius. Aside from those dislikes, the Prius really is a nice car if you can get past what I listed. Rides nice, gets fabulous MPG, and should last a very long time. Resale on a Prius is high, but since it has no other car to compare to, the author does have a valid point, only because there is nothing to compare to, so how can you come up with a true ROI on it? OTOH the TCH and others like it, yep you do get a good ROI on it when you compare it to non hybrids, the same as if you compared a Diesel pickup to a non diesel.

 

Sorry I got you guys excited. Did you see the double smileys?

I don't drive like this. It is just a sarcastic and meant to be funny response to post #34.

 

Actually, it is possible for the US-market 2011 Fiesta to reach 40 miles per US gallon fuel economy on the EPA 2008 highway test. The reason is simple: US-market Fiestas will use the new six-speed Powershift dual-clutch transmission, which won't suffer the fuel efficiency losses of a conventional automatic (Powershift uses two dry clutch plates instead of a power-robbing torque converter), and with six forward gears to work with, Ford could lower the engine revs at highway speeds quite a bit, lowering fuel consumption at speeds between 50 and 70 mph.

 

Great! It will tie with the 2001-03, NHW11 Prius.

Bob Wilson

 

But only on the highway, not in urban driving. The old Prius will beat it out there.

 

I'm quoting five-speed manuals, not automatics. Ford only offer an automatic gearbox on the 1.4 litre petrol engine. It achieves 43.5mpg compared to the manual's 49.6mpg - 13% worse.

Those manufacturers that do have a semi-automatic gearbox, e.g. Vauxhall/Opel 'Easytronic' find it gives a very slight improvement over the equivalent manual: the 1.6 litre Astra 'Easytronic' (5-speed semi-auto) gives 44.8mpg Imperial/EU combined cycle, the manual gives 43.5mpg. 2.9% improvement.

I'm not sure that a six-speed manual would offer a substantial improvement; six-speed boxes normally reserve their top ratio for >75mph.

 

Actually, achieving 40 mpg highway in the EPA 2008 test would be pretty impressive, especially given that with the new test it includes a 80 mph max speed run, which tends to use a lot of fuel if the gearing is not proper.

 

Oh man, that was low!:evil:
:rockon:

 

. . . . . and you have to 'never mind' the fact that there's not much room for your sardines, in that teeny sardine can.

Yep, the Prius just doesn't add up. Not like paying for fuel that comes from countires that want to destroy us. Yes, THAT adds up.