Future Not Bright for Plug-In's (Honda Statement)

There is a fundamental problem with hydrogen in transportation. Conversion losses.

from An Early Retirement For The Hydrogen Fuel Cell | Energy Bulletin

or to put it another way,

from Why a hydrogen economy doesn't make sense

Even if there wasn't a massive infrastructure problem with hydrogen deployment, the unavoidable conversion losses destroys any chance that hydrogen will become the energy carrier of the future.

MSANTOS, you think the Honda and Toyota wouldn't be that stupid, eh? Well up till a few years ago the "Hydrogen Economy" had support from ALL the car companies as the shareholders of said companies are the same as the shareholders in the oil industry.

And the oil industry wants desperately to provide the fuel that will replace oil. They knew over 15 years ago that the age of the ICE was coming to an end. What better way for them to keep things going than by selling us "clean" hydrogen. What they didn't want us to know is that all the hydrogen is and will be made from fossil fuels. Hydrolysis is just too inefficient.

Nevermind that 100s of millions of dollars went into making fuel cells work in cars and today they can still barely pull it off at $1 million a vehicle.

Ballard gave up on fuel cells in cars. So should everyone.

 

Hi David,

The nickel metal hydride batteries in our Prius use a metal hydride to store the hydrogen. According to Wiki, a metal hydride can store hydrogen at six times the density of liquid hydrogen. In our NiMH batteries, I've measured charge-discharge efficiencies of 94%. We've had hydrogen based, NiMH batteries in hybrid electric vehicles since 1997. In fact all hybrid electric vehicles use hydrogen powered, NiMH batteries as successful sealed units.

Hydrogen is an attractive metal for an air-metal battery. After all, a fuel cell is simply an air-metal battery using the lightest alkaline metal, hydrogen. But I've long believed there are better metals, easier to handle, with excellent energy density to use for air-metal batteries.

So understand that I'm not too worried about the hydrogen fuel cell. When it shows up in laptop batteries at the local computer store, I'll join the celebration. Until then, I use what is commercially available and can be bought today at retail outlets and some car dealers.

Bob Wilson

 

As Fibb pointed out the best argument against hydrogen has always been that it didn't make any sense. It requires electicity to generate the hydrogen, so skip the hydrogen step and use the electricity in a more direct manner. For at least the past decade I've dismissed hydrogen on that basis. It's a pretty basic engineering argument.

That said, I'm still pleased to see research into this sort of difficult parallel path. While it would be foolhardy to bet the farm on this, it does make sense to continue investigation. (That makes it a good candidate for govt. funding, a poor one for private.) Even if it never pays off for hydrogen, such research tends to find unexpected applications in other areas.

 

Hi All,

If there is any hope for a fuel cell vehicle, I think it will be a solid metal fuel, or energy carrier. For example, aluminum/gallium alloy placed in water will spontaneously create a hydrogen flow. There are other electrolytic techniques that can effectively burn metal for electricity.

Now is this more efficient than an electric car? Probably not. But could you run an eighteen wheeler cross country, with only water stops, probably.

 

Hi All,

I think the main application for PEM Fuel cells will be stand-alone, fixed CNG powered Power and Heat/AC units. The energy conversion efficency is good, as wastes get used in other functions.

 

Given today's battery technology, plug-ins are only going to be popular with the fringe groups ...... yes, that be us!

The general consumer just isn't going to buy an auto that has a very limited range, and takes hours to recharge when that range ends. That's really the bottom line.

Unless battery technology gets better .... and VERY fast .... the mass produced pure EV auto will remain just a dream.

... Brad

 

a) many people will be satisfied with a 100 mile range at 2 cents a mile vs 20 cents for a gas car, b) and batteries and ultracaps will improve dramatically, c) and you could have an infrastructure that supports battery swaps, like Israel, Denmark, Australia and San Francisco or going to have. See Better Place || Our Bold Plan

 

Hey, I'm with you. However, we are WAY in the minority.

My point is that until batteries have a longer range and a MUCH quicker recharge time, the general public is simply not going to buy them. So, until that fundamental problem is fixed, the EV will not sell, and is destined for failure.

... Brad

 

Unfortunately, the limited battery range of electric vehicles like the EV1 (100 miles) and the RAV EV (100 miles) and the Tesla (244 miles) doesn't meet the requirements of all Americans.

100 miles of range only meets the daily requirements of 90% of the population.

We need to understand something. Oil and gasoline supplies are limited. We are not necessarily going to have gasoline at the gas station every day when supplies start getting tight. Peak Oil is very real and will make the credit crunch seem easy by comparison.

I plan on my entire garage being pure electric (Tesla and Vectrix) and plug-in hybrid (Hymotion Prius).

Deal with reality or reality will deal with you.

 

Are these specs good enough for a start....?

from Introducing the BYD E6 Electric Car : TreeHugger

 

My thoughts exactly, wonder how most people fail to see this simple fact. Oil companies are behind this H2 hype since the beginning. They just want to swap gasoline and diesel for H2 and keep on selling...

 

Only if they can afford to have a second car for longer trips, not everyone can...

According to this press-release from Toyota: TOYOTA: News Releases they are already working on "the development of an innovative next-generation battery that can outperform a lithium-ion battery". Somehow it seems they are not 100% happy with lithium-ion... they have not even started selling them and they are already working on something better... always ahead of the pack... that's why I love Toyota

Well, at some stage we (Portuguese people) were lead to believe Portugal would be part of the better place project. Then we realized our government had only signed a contract with Renault-Nissan to buy the cars and to build the infrastructure, or so it seems...
We at http://prius-pt.com have mixed feelings about this. On one hand we welcome the coming of pure EVs to our country.
On another hand we question if these charging stations will be for Renault-Nissan cars only. It would not make any sense to have charging stations for particular car makers, but I doubt others are being heard about this.
So, all in all we fear this can be a sell-out of our country to Renault-Nissan.
Time will tell.

 

Even if EV's or PHEV's are only the solution for "90%" of the people, wouldn't that be a huge step forward!

The argument that we can't do anything unless we do it for 100% makes no sense. We currently have small commuter cars competing with large SUV's If people understood the idea of using the "right too for the right job" we would all be further ahead.

The problem now is with gas ~$1.75/gal it makes it very hard for people to be willing to spring for alternative technology. We should, as a matter of public policy start taxing fuel incrementally up to ~$4/gallon, and use 100% of the revenue to fund alternative technologies! We found the threshold on the high end this past summer where people begin to change their behavior, it seems to be ~$4/gal. Let's not let this chance slip by,,,,again!

Icarus.

 

An all night charge isn't going to do it for the American market.

... Brad

 

You may have missed my point.

... Brad

 

I guess that's what I get for reading the works written by the most notable hydrogen researchers / engineers ... the ones working for NASA. Those crazy NASA engineers pointing out how much energy is wasted in the hydrogen conversion process ... that would have best been used in its original form ... those hydrogen cars that maybe someday they'll be able to build for under $500,000 ... Boy, thanks for cluing me in how that was a bad idea, to poo poo such goings on. Yes, I should listen to those in the auto industry ... that are having millions THROWN at them, and have failed (for 40 years) to make hydrogen a go. Certainly another 40 years, and another trillion ought to do it.

Funny how one of the biggest proponents of the hydrogen hoax is the Fossil Fuel industry. And why not? Since the Lion's share of electricity (electrolysis) and natural gas (stripping hydrogen from it) are both products of THAT industry, it's pretty easy to see that hydrogen keeps their industry in control of the monopoly. Maybe if the oilies didn't get to keep us relying on them (further sponsoring mid-east terrorism), and maybe if autos worked in a deep space environment as the space ships that rely on hydrogen ... and maybe if auto manufacturers & end users had the budget of NASA, it'd work. But since neither do ...

So much for the informed. Once again, the cycle repeats... and boy, is it ever fun.

Cheers

... and that is called a conclusory statement. Consider ending your conclusory statement with the word "because". Then answer the because. That my help you tell your listener why you feel, or think, or know, or conjecture ... otherwise a conclusory statement is saying nothing.

 

No. I clearly understand this issue. I live it every day in my life and my business. The people who understand that Peak Oil is reality understand that we are running out of time and options. Your reliance on gasoline is a crutch that is going to be taken away. We either need to learn to deal the reality of energy shortages or we need to adapt to other ways of personal mobility.

Your point was that spoiled Americans won't tolerate having a "limited" range and the thought of recharging over a few hours.

My point is this. Being stuck with no gasoline until next week, because of shortages, is going to really suck.
People will learn very quickly that it is convienent to just plug-in at your house or work or while shopping.
I find plugs everywhere and it easily doubles the daily range of my Hymotion battery by taking advantage of opportunistic recharging during the day.

I have had a plug-in Prius Hymotion for 2 months now.
I have had the Vectrix scooter for 5 months.
This is easy to deal with.

We really don't have a choice in the matter. The brutal reality of tight oil supply is here to stay. The only reason prices have fallen is the recession/depression. Supplies are going to begin squeezing again as soon as the economy begins to recover.

 

Renting a car/truck on occasion is also an option as required.

 

I think it might be a zinc-air battery...

 

Did you see the part about 80% charge in 15 minutes?