Volkswagen diesel car wins "Green Car of the Year"

While there is no answer to my last question, let's do a comparison:

So, looking at USA Jetta specs and USA emission certificates, even the Jetta LEV II using these later high-tech filters and catalytic converters has these poor results when compared to the Prius (using your own numbers):

Emission..............LEV II Jetta TDI..........AT-PZEV II Prius..........Comparison

NMHC/NMOG.............0.012.....................0.009.....................Jetta pollutes 33% more
CO....................0.4.......................0.1.......................Jetta pollutes 4 times more
NOx...................0.05......................0.01......................Jetta pollutes 5 times more
Highway NOx...........0.03......................0.01......................Jetta pollutes 3 times more
PM....................0.000.....................----......................
HCHO..................----......................----......................
US06 HC+NOx...........0.08......................0.03......................Jetta pollutes 2.7 times more
US06 CO.............. 0.01......................0.00......................Jetta pollutes infinitely more
SC03 HC+NOx...........0.12......................0.04......................Jetta pollutes 3 times more
SC03 CO...............0.02......................0.1.......................Jetta pollutes only 20%

Now if we look on the European versions of both vehicles, the closest we have is this:

VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Search Results - Further Information
VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Search Results - Further Information

(g/km)

Emission..........Jetta..........Prius.......... Comparison

CO2...............154............104............ Jetta pollutes 50% more
CO................0.127..........0.180.......... Jetta pollutes only 70%
NOx...............0.162..........0.010.......... Jetta pollutes 16 times more
HC+NOx............0.182..........0.030.......... Jetta pollutes 6 times more
PM................0.001..........N/A............

 

You may have went to the VW site but you are quoting the price for the Jetta Sportwagon S with a 2.5L gas engine and manual transaxle.

If you go here, you can see the base price for each model of Sportwagon, just move your mouse over the car and it gives the price to the right.
Build a Jetta SportWagen
The base TDI with no options costs $23,590:

Biodiesel is cleaner than petroleum based diesel for some emissions and higher in others:

Hydrocarbons (HC) -------- (-67%)
Carbon Monoxide (CO) ---- (-48%)
Nitrate Oxides (NOx) ------ (+10%)
Particulates (PM) ---------- (-47%)

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/emissions.PDF

Notice that it increased NOx which is the emission category that diesels have the most problems with. The 2009 TDI already has 0.000 particulates so no reduction there. Plus if you run B100 in a 2009 TDI you will destroy the DPF and NOx catalyst.

Even if you could run B100 in the 2009 TDI and saw the reductions in emissions shown above it STILL would have higher emissions than a Prius. (See wxman's comparison of emission results)

The 2009 TDI is a very nice car, I like it better than my Prius but it simply doesn't have lower emissions than a Prius no matter what fuel you put in it. (diesel, GTL diesel, or biodiesel)

The extra torque is not needed to maintain a constant speed. If you were to accelerate or go up a hill, the electric motor would engage and that torque is available.

Sorry but that is a very poor excuse for putting out unsupported opinion. Posting a link in PriusChat is as simple as cut and paste.

 

There are only two diesel cars for sale in the US; VW Jetta, and Mercedes E-Class. The E-Class uses urea injection instead of a NOx catalyst. BMW will be offering a diesel 3-series the first quarter of 2009.

 

I think the 3-series diesels would be warmly welcomed by the American market when they get to your shores.

The basic performance figures for the European versions are:

318d - 140 hp, 0-60 in 9.0s, top speed 130 mph, 50.1 mpg (US)

320d - 174 hp, 0-60 in 7.6s, top speed 144 mph, 48.3 mpg (US)

330d - 241 hp, 0-60 in 5.9s, top speed 155 mph, 40 mpg (US)

 

I think I may have an original opinion to shed on the newest Jetta TDI, since I just had to replace my 1996 VW Passat TDi wagon.

I shopped the Jetta dead last because I really liked my old TDi, and in all honesty, I really wanted a new tdi to replace it. The new wagons just arrived, out here, last month.

For comparision, I had originally shopped (researched, then DROVE) Toyota Prius, Hyundai Sonata, Honda new accord, Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Camry hybrid, and Scion coupe and even an "S" Corolla.

Last, but hardly least, VW....I loved the new sportswagon. and remember, I really loved my old Passat,
BUT.... the jetta is smaller, lower, and narrower than my old ride (I am 6' and 250 lbs)...
I flat needed more car !

Also, Having owned the first of the new gen TDi's, I know how many things will be a problem to the new owners....
The cat, the controller, exhast recirc, ash, synth oil, amon inj, the plastic bits on german cars.......

Then, we have the emissions and the new mileage.

The combined EPA does not do the VW justice, nor did it on my 1996 tdi.... but low 40's was too poor to even consider.
Remember, I had a 12 year-old car that got far better average MPG than the new Jetta is rated at, BEST CASE SCENERIO....

Reality check...
I wanted a new car as close to the same size as my 96 Passat, with as similar MPG as possible.
The Jetta TDi is too small, even in the coolest sportswagon form....

My only choice, was the first car I originally looked at in a wide field...

The Prius.

( ! but oh, man... that VW wagon still looks hotter!)

 

the jetta is not a passat!
the jetta its a VW golf size car.

 

wow, aren't you just up on a pedestal w/ your prius. This attitude you have is the entire reason I laugh at every prius driver on the road. You are an elitist. Someone has a differing view than you, and you look down your nose at them. Nice work. I'm done with you.

You couldnt admit comparable/superior albeit different technology if it hit you square in the nose. You are that blinded. Enjoy walking around going LALALALALALALALA with your hands over your ears.

now that I have 5 posts, I can post links.. I couldnt before, the forums software wouldnt let me. This article pretty much explains my feelings...

http://autos.canada.com/news/story.html?id=eca3aed5-d2a8-4892-bc72-a4eee2224244

I'm willing to bet none of you folks have driven a car with a DSG transmission either. Its phenomenal.

 

Sounds a little like the pot and the kettle.

• I haven't seen you admit that the VW Jetta TDI Sportwagon starts at $23,590 not the $18,999 that you claim.
• You also haven't admitted that a Prius has lower emissions that the TDI regardless of fuel. You instead continue to completely ignore the EPA certification data and instead make baseless claims.

My bad, didn't know Priuschat had that restriction. Interesting article. It still frustrates me to no end that magazine editors can't report a simple average fuel economy rating. How hard is it to fill the car, drive, and then fill it again. Instead they give us random numbers from the instant fuel economy gauge.

You would lose that bet. I drove a Passat 2.0L PD TDI with the DSG the last time I was in the UK on business. I have also test driven the 2009 Jetta TDI with a DSG. I like the DSG but still prefer a simple manual transaxle. The DSG might be a acceptable compromise if I drove in the city most of the time. Then again, if I drove mostly in the city I would buy a hybrid not a diesel.

As it is now, I have one of each. We drive the Prius in the city and the TDI on long trips.

 

ah, you guys are all hilarious.

'we prius drivers'...

''the most perfected drivetrain evar''....

the laughs never stop. the elitism is really, really obvious. it's kind of amusing.

 

This is getting into a serious trend here on PriusChat, IMO this is alarming.
One after another these guys register into PriusChat just to be able to bash Prius owners. I don't hesitate calling this people trolls because that's exactly what they are.

Everything I have said here on PriusChat is either factual or my own personal opinion, either way they came from studying the Prius over the last 4 years, many things learned here on PriusChat.

If I said something that I called a fact and did not present proof when asked for, then please let me know, I'll present it. If I'm proven wrong I'll be the first one to thank whoever proves me wrong, simply because I'll be more knowledgeable thanks to that one person that proved me wrong.

I'm allowed to think the Prius drive train is the most perfected drive train ever made. I'll bet a lot of Porsche lovers would say the Porsche is the best. It's called passion first of all. It's subjective. Of course anyone is also permitted to think it hilarious. Why not? But does anyone here believe that this fellow even knows what the PSD is? Does anyone here believe this fellow even knows what is the role of MG1 or MG2 in the HSD?

I understand a passed exam on Toyota's HSD is not required for admission into PriusChat . But many times I wonder how people who don't know 0,1% of how the Prius works, or people who make stupid claims about the available torque at high speed on the Prius, or hideous hybrid battery induced pollution (or any other example we've seen on this thread alone), how are they allowed to call bad names to others and keep on happily posting.

Now these guys (be it the one who I won't ever bother naming again, or be this last one here), have entered into PriusChat just to make fun of Prius owners. This last one for example, just search for his previous posts... this one is the only thing you'll find: http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-main-forum/56166-lol-prius.html

Like I said earlier, I'm not a moderator of this forum, I'm just reaching for the moderators and asking if they feel this kind of behavior should be accepted. Who gains with these posts? What added value do they bring?

For me, and this is my PERSONAL opinion, it just bothers me to see someone who is NOT WILLING to learn anything being allowed to post here. What kind of person registers itself on a forum "made for" and "made by" people who they admittedly said to "I laugh at every prius driver on the road" just to provoke them? What is this? How are these guys even allowed to walk in the forum??? Would you accept that someone would enter your own house and would get served at your bar, sit at your table, sleep on your beds, and during that period of time he would keep on hitting you and being rude to you? Would you not throu this guy out the window?

I'm all for liberal thoughts and large latitude of thoughts, but this is offensive, this is about entering and posting just to be offensive. I may be too harsh sometimes in my writing but I try my best to keep it non-personal, and I always add some value, be it little or big. These guys don't do that. They just troll.

Food for thought.

 

Never quote trolls, it makes it harder to remove their crap.

 

I generally agree with all of your comments.

Regarding the “off-board†HC emissions ancillary to vehicle operations, according to EPA in their AP-42 publication, “Emissions Factors†(Emissions Factors & AP 42 | Clearinghouse for Emission Inventories and Emissions Factors | Technology Transfer Network | US EPA), 0.6 POUNDS of VOCs per 1000 gallons of gasoline are produced from the loading of gasoline into a tanker truck (http://www.epa.gov/ttn/chief/ap42/ch05/final/c05s02.pdf - from LL calculations page 5.2-7), 5.0 lbm per 1000 gallons during transit (Table 5.2-5), and 3.1 lbm per 1000 gallons at the gas station from off-loading the tanker (Stage I), underground storage tank breathing and emptying, and vehicle refilling operations (Stage II) (Table 5.2-7). These all assume best available control technology at each step. The emission factors for diesel fuel are 0.0022 pounds, 0.014 pounds and 0.027 pounds per 1000 gallons, respectively (the 0.027 pounds per 1000 gallons @ gas station are from http://www.epa.state.oh.us/dapc/engineer/stage2/10b.pdf page 4, 2.ii.a)

I agree that VOCs produced from the loading of tankers and during transit may or may not be local VOC (HC) sources (depending on where the pipeline terminal is located). However, most gas stations are concentrated around populations centers and could arguably be considered local HC sources for the purposes of urban ground-level ozone (“smogâ€) formation.

If we can agree that gas stations VOC emissions are “local†sources similar to emissions from the vehicle itself, then the PZEV Jetta is responsible for 0.004 g/mi (direct (“tailpipeâ€) HC emissions) + 0.0052 g/mi (3-day diurnal (0.26/50)) + 0.0004 g/mi (ORVR (0.01 g/gallon x 1 gallon/24 miles)) = 0.0096 g/mi HC emissions direct from the vehicle.

Gas station evaporative emissions ancillary to the operations of the PZEV Jetta – 3.1 pounds/1000 gallons = 0.0031 pounds/gallon ÷ 24 miles/gallon (mileage per fueleconomy.gov) x 453.6 grams/pound = 0.059 g/mi. 0.059 g/mi + 0.0096 g/mi = 0.069 g/mi total HC emissions. As can be seen, in this case, gas station HC emissions ancillary to vehicle operations are higher than the vehicle HC emissions by a factor of about 6.

Using the same methodology for the T2B5 (LEV II) Jetta TDI – 0.012 g/mi (direct) + 0.000025 g/mi (vehicle evaporative - calculated from ULEV II certified Jetta 2.5 gasser evaporative emissions) + 0.00037 g/mi (gas station ancillary HC emissions) = 0.0124 g/mile total HC emissions.

Using your methodology/formula @ http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...ops-prius-in-fuel-economy-marathon-not-5.html post #42, only using SULEV as basis (I’m using SULEV because it’s my understanding that CARB will be proposing “LEV III†soon, which will require a fleet average of SULEV, so it appears SULEV will become the emission “standardâ€, at least in the CARB states)…


(CO + (1/0.01)*NMOG + (1/0.02)*NOx) + (1/0.01*PM)/4 = (CO + 100*NMOG + 50*NOx + 100*PM)/4

’09 Jetta TDI (LEV) -> 0.4 + 1.24 + 2.5 + 0 = 4.13 g/mi/4 = 1.04 g/mi weighted-equivalent emissions
’09 Jetta 2.5 (PZEV) -> 0.3 + 6.9 + 0 + 0 = 7.2 g/mi/4 = 1.9 g/mi weighted-equivalent emissions (assuming zero PM emissions for Jetta gasser)


Of course, the methodologies are somewhat arbitrary and the emission factors are estimates, but this hopefully will serve to illustrate that the impacts of a specific vehicle on air quality are not as cut-and-dry as the EPA Bin or CARB classification (LEV/ULEV/SULEV) or the “green vehicle score†would suggest, especially when considering different fuels.

 

what if your opinion is offensive to me? what if your passion for your prius offends everyone else on the road when it extends into dangerous driving habits, and an obsession with that mpg gauge? you're right, i didn't exactly register for my love of the prius (as i have none). but to act like one single automobile is the end-all be-all everything-else-sucks? that's kind of ridiculous. I'm just here to show the other side of the coin. Not everyone lives in dreamland. If that offends you, go hypermile around the block, you'll feel better.

 

As a moderator at another site, we're been rethinking how to deal with trolls. We've been thinking that to some extent, trolls, especially the ignorant ones, serve as a pinata, a toy for our membership to beat up on:

Like a 'catnip mouse,' trolls in moderation are a toy to help sharpen the intellectual skills of our all of our membership. As long as everyone plays 'nice' and deals with facts and data, what happens is the membership grows in technical skills and abilities. The trolls will eventually like the 'catnip mouse' tear a seam and fall apart by falling back to those patterns that rate being banned.

Since we have VW diesel advocates hanging around, I'll offer them my thanks for telling us where to find good deals on used Prius. No doubt the VW dealerships have used car lots filling up with all those Prius traded in on these wonderful VW diesels. Curious, not one volkswagon dealer is advertising a used Prius on Ebay. <GRINS>

Oh look, Ebay: 220317753105, a Honda Insight that has cleverly included the word "Prius" in the description to get a search hit. Hey diesel trolls, why don't you contact the Ebay sellers and suggest they put in "not Prius" in their vehicle descriptions. That way they can get hits on the search term "Prius." <LOL>

So I say enjoy the punching bag, the diesel training troll(s). Think of it as a game, like 'Whack a mole." <GRINS>

Bob Wilson

 

FWIW your weight numbers are off. The Prius weighs 2932 lbs, the TDI Jetta 3285 lbs. Its a common misconception to believe that the hybrid system is of no benefit on the highway. Because the electric motors supplement torque for acceleration, the ICE can be designed with far less surplus power. In the Prius case, the atkinson cycle 1.5L would be a real dog by itself, but with the HSD system it provides adequate acceleration, and excellent steady state cruising efficiency.

Rob

 

My experience matches Rob's point about highway fuel economy. I average 60 - 60 mph, and 55 - 60 mpg. Sea level folks get 3-5 mpg less than I do.

Wayne Brown has measured energy use at 215 watt*hr per mile at 60 mph in the Prius. This works out to an ICE efficiency of 35%.

 

With gasoline running $1.31/gallon locally, and diesel 95 cents more, the Jetta diesel is in a huge hole.