Volkswagen diesel car wins "Green Car of the Year"

I had promised myself I would not go live on this debate again, but I can't help writing this post mainly to congratulate you Rob. What an excellent post, very well done!

While I'm at it, I might as well add some extra points to my argumentation, so that members from the USA can better understand my stand against diesel engines. European members already know this, please bear with me:

1) Diesel engines have been in use in Europe since ever, they were invented here and never left us

Some say the average use of diesels in Europe is about 50%, some say more. I can say that here in Portugal my feeling is that the real number is around 70% to 80%. The reason? Cheap diesel funded by our taxes. Long gone governments subsidised diesel price at the pump with state funding at the time diesels were used only for work on trucks, pickups and alike, and heavy machinery. This was many many years ago, but lasts till today. The fact is that I and all the other driving gasoline cars, and mainly driving Prius find this a huge injustice. We are paying for others to move around on diesel polluting vehicles, and we are paying more for driving the cleanest ICE car on earth just because it uses gasoline. Everybody buys diesel because it's cheaper at the pump. Right now the reference price for diesel is 1.079 Eur per litre, and gasoline RON95 is at 1.149 Eur per litre. Nobody cares for the environment, they care for their wallet.

2) I've seen the sites from Johnson Matthey and Mercedes AdBlue

They were very good news to me. It seems diesel emission control technologies are finally catching up on gasoline ones. I liked what I saw, but that does not mean the technology works as advertised, and I take it with a grain of salt, as we always should... but... read on...

3) Fact of the matter is that car manufacturers only do something for the environment when they are forced to. The Prius is one of the very few exceptions to this rule.

If I look at all the diesel vehicles available and on the road today, 99.999% are not even fitted with a DPF. Worse than that, most new cars available at dealers don't even have DPF as an option! Can you imagine your roads in your cities with 80% diesel vehicles sending PM and all the rest of diesel gas emissions on your face day after day after day for years and years?

4) You are lucky enough in the USA to have fuel agnostic emission rulings.

We in Europe do not have such luck. In fact our Euro standards for diesel have been (and will still be for years to come) a lot more relaxed for diesels. Worst than that, is the fact that every time the European Commission tries to level things and impose harder limits on the diesel emissions (they are a joke today) the German manufacturers, noticeably VW, BMW and Mercedes (but mostly VW group wich includes Audi and Porsche) lobby hard enough and all falls apart... the status quo remains. Last few times even the German government supported these lobbies, claiming that imposing environment rules like the EC wanted would be to kill the German economy... yeah... right...

5) Where are those cars with all these "clean diesel emissions" technologies?

If I browse the european emissions at VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Database Search I have to be shocked. There is no way I can find any car as clean as the Jetta you use for reference in your posts. Why? Even Mercedes goes as far as saying that the AdBlue technology won't be put to work in Europe, its only for the US market. Nice ehm?

Any reference diesel here, no matter how "green" or "blue" the manufacturer claims it to be, has far worse emissions than the Prius, and most as far worse emissions than its gasoline counterpart.

The Prius is on sale since 1997, and still beats the hell out of any top-notch high-tech diesel today. This means something.

I would love to compare my Prius emissions with this AdBlue tech, and other technologies like SCRT, but where are they? I can't find them here. The only ones I can find are from 3 litre engines, surely nobody expects a comparison with the 1.5 litre Prius...

CONCLUSION:

I'm glad there is new technology that is bringing down diesel emissions to lower levels. I'm sadden that these technologies are not being used where they are most needed, where most diesels are - here in Europe.

Since I do not have any comparable sized car using these technologies to compare to the Prius, I have to compare with the cars I know and can see on VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Database Search. There one can not find ANY diesel vehicle that comes even close to the Prius.

For the cars I see everyday, for the cars that are NOW on the road, diesel engines are the worst thing ever invented. They are killing us everyday. It will take years for them to eventually catch up current hybrids.

By then I expect to be rolling my Prius PHEV or Prius EV all over the place.

 

Actually here in the UK diesel is about 10% more expensive than gasoline, and we still buy mostly diesel vehicles.

Can I just also add to this debate my opinion that the major benefit of the diesel engine is actually in the field, not in the vehicle?

When switching to biofuels, gasoline engines must use either ethanol or butanol, which is very land intensive, requires lots of fossil-oil, water and fertilizer and competes with land for food, while barely reducing overall CO2 outputs.

Diesel engines on the other hand can run immediately on biodiesel, or with a little modification on straight vegetable oil, that can come straight from algae grown in deserts using very little land, water or fertilizer.

One acre can produce up to 10,000 gallons of oil per year from algae, but only 300 gallons of ethanol from corn, which also requires huge amounts of coal for the distillation.

 

Hi All,

NOx generation is intrinisicly linked with Carnot engine effiiciency. The higher the engine efficiency, the higher the NOx emission. This is because the Carnot efficiency is proportional to Tin/Tout ratio.

NOx is formed more readily at higher temperatures. And as these engines are air-breathing, they ingest Nitrogen. If the internal cylinder temperatures are higher, the NOx emissions are higher.

So, we see that the bigger the ratio - Tin/Tout, the higher the efficiency, and if that is acheived by a higher Tin, the higher the NOx.

Another way to improve Tin/Tout is to reduce Tout. This is acheived with Turbo Chargers, but Turbo Chargers also cause an increase in Tin. This is probably the nature of the Ford move to smaller Turbo charged gasoline engines. Using what they have learned about Diesel NOx reduction, in a cylinder temperature and pressure that is where Diesel were some decades ago.

This is probably why VW et al win their arguement in the EC. If you limit NOx on the cars, we will have to make them less efficient and they will use more fuel - they probably say.

A Prius like hybrid system gets Diesel-Plus efficiency by attacking the car-system related ineffiencies, rather than the engine-alone inefficiecies.

 

This is a fascinating discussion ... still trying to understand it all.

Since we have 2 extremes, North America mostly on gasoline and Europe mostly on diesel, what are the healt effects on the population? If there is such a big difference in quntity and quality of emissions then we should have some studies showing the difference, no? Are there studies showing the effect of diesel use in Europe on health?

The other question I have is consideration of drive pattern when comparing diesel TDI vs gasoline HSD. It is fairly clear that for driving pattern dominated by city and heavy traffic driving then HSD is better, both in terms of fuel use and pollution (just by virtue of engine not working while stopped). However what about highway steady speed driving pattern?

For instance, about 90% of my driving is highway steady speed. Comparing the diesel Jetta and Prius, I noticed that Prius is heavier probably because of batteries and extra electrical components. So in my case I would be hauling around extra 300 kilos (about, not sure exactly ...) of components that are rarely used. Even when having to stop, diesel can idle at lower RPM so wastes less than my present gasoline cars.

Anyway the question is how does the fuel efficiency and pollution equation/comparison change (if it changes) when looking at 90% highway steady speed driving pattern????
I haven't decided yet so not sure myself. Thoughts?

thanks

 

From what we hear in the news, they win over political and economic questions, not technical ones. They claim the investment would have to be huge, that the cars would be too expensive, would lessen the sales, people would loose jobs, the economy would flop... you can see where they're getting... they paint the darkest picture they can.

If I understood the way these emission retention systems work, the NOx are almost completely transformed to nitrogen and water. This way I see no reason why the engine could not be fully optimized for efficiency.

The only drawback I can see is that the catalytic converter generates a lot more CO2, from carbon monoxide and HC oxidation. Vehicle classification for "greenness" and taxes is indexed to CO2 emissions in Europe. This means cars with CRTs would be worse classified than cars without.

This is a perverse result of only looking into CO2 to classify vehicle environment friendliness. Sure CO2 and all GH gases are bad, but so are the ones that affect public health, even worse IMHO. I have yet to find an evaluation system in one country that balances them all to classify vehicles in an environment friendly scale.

 

As you can imagine, with so many diesels around, going from 1300cc up to 3000cc (or more), mostly around 2000cc turbo intercooler, this question pops up a lot here in Europe.

From my personal experience, and from road tests I've done with some friends, as long as you keep within speed limits the Prius is the king of the hill. At 120km/h-130km/h there is no diesel in the same segment that can save fuel compared to the Prius. Only if you move to smaller cars.

Then you have the other side of the equation here: at least in the Latin countries almost no-one respects speed limits. The most common speed at highway is 140km/h. At this speed you can find better diesels as far as fuel consumption goes.

But don't you forget... they spend less fuel, but they pollute dozens of times more. With no emission control at all, they are a public health hazard.

 

I completely agree, and this is the main reason why I think diesel technology needs to continued to be pursued - CI appears to potentially be a better platform for biofuels than SI.

I run B20 almost exclusively in our Jetta TDI and occasionally make my own biod out of waste vegetable oil.

Don't have time today...but as soon as I can, I'll try to explain the reasons why I believe reducing HC emissions is more critical to improving ambient air quality than reducing NOx in the near term (although I agree, the ultimate goal should be to reduce both to below detection limits).

 

I noticed this post when linked to another on the site, I registered so i could put my 2 cents in here. I see that the topic has strayed FAR from the original posters intent, but thats alright. I just wanted to touch on a few things.

I'm not an expert, and dont claim to be..I just wanted to mention a few of my opinions. I think the majority of the poo pooers of the Jetta diesel are forgetting that the car can run on bio100 diesel fuel, which is a renewable energy source. I think that is a often overlooked fact. I don't really "get along" with all the alternative fuel subisidies as sources, but if we are talking purely on product, its important to acknowledge.

I also want tou touch base on the fact that the Diesel is making nice power and torque. How does your prius do passing ont he freeway in comparison? 135hp and 235ft/lbs of torque makes the diesel engine a very usable motor. They aren't "loud and dirty" like they used to be. However, the best thing about the Jetta, is that it doesn't look like a spaceship, and no one is trying to make a statement in their purchase. Please don't even tell me you picked your prius over a civic hybrid because of its looks...

I see quite a bit of prius elitism going on in this thread (expected, it IS prius chat afterall), and its too bad. While the prius is a great design, it has its demerits as well. Getting one now will cost you a pretty penny. The markup and desire for the cars has made them impractical. How long do you have to drive your 50mpg car to make up for the massive price deficit you are incurring upon yourself in the purchase? Sometimes I think most of this hyper miling and prius humping is just feel good stuff. That's absolutely fine, as long as you can admit it to yourself.

edit: lets not forget the environmental impact of creating those batteries you guys have in those things...

 

If this is a positive fact or not it depends interely on the origin of the bio-fuel. If you are using food and damaging fields that could be used for food crops, or even worse, taking down forests to plant corn, then it's very bad.

You have to be kidding me. Did you ever drive a Prius? I know from what I've heard that the American suspension is crappy, but the engine and motors are the same as here in Europe. The Prius develops 115 hp and 478 Nm of torque, and even at high-speed within legal limits the torque never goes bellow about 200 Nm. Poor Jetta...

I did not pick the Prius over the HCH because of its looks. I picked the Prius because it has the best hybrid system. You should learn about the HSD before saying so much nonsense. And YES, looking different to me is a big plus. Please don't tell me you picked your Jetta because it looks just like all other cars...

I can't help feel some "elitism", since I am one of only 1.5 million persons on earth to have the pleasure of driving a vehicle with the most perfected drivetrain ever engineered, apart from the Lexus hybrids. If you would own one, you would understand. Driving a Prius is a pleasure that can't be explained in words, so I'm sorry I can't let you know.

At least where I live, the Prius is the best car considering the equipment it has, the performance it has, the fuel consumption it has, the comfort it gives, etc. There is no other car that comes even close within the same budget. I need a car within the same segment as the Prius, and the Prius was and still is the best choice available in the segment.

Get real... are you for real? Do you troll around that much?
You should have done your homework first... let me try to help you a bit... you can start reading and learning:

[FONT=&quot]http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/k_forum/tenji/pdf/pgr_e.pdf[/FONT]


Just do a search on the internet, learn about life cycle assessment, and try to see how ridicule those claims are. I'm willing to bet my money you can find many information about environment questions and batteries here on PriusChat as well.


Last but not least, you've got some nerve, I give you that. Too bad the knowledge is not up to the same level. You're on the right place to learn though... don't go away. But again, you better learn the basics about the Prius before posting such bs.

 

Great idea, but just about completely unrealized potential on a large scale. Rather similar to flex-fuel Ethanol vehicles in the US. I'm not against either one per se, I just won't give brownie points until the court of practical results has ruled. Unexpected consequences just seem to pop up.

I'll just have to keep demanding fuel-agnostic emissions standards along with carbon taxation.

Which isn't to say I don't have an opinion
I tend to think that biofuels can only be a small supplement to the total transportation mileage burden; the great majority has to be electricity sourced from wind and solar utilized in rail lines and (battery) vehicles. So regardless of whether SI or CI has an advantage in biofuel use as part of a PHEV, it is the wrong place to focus.

 

Regardless, it pollutes less than a prius when run on biodiesel either way. You can replant trees, you cant replant atmosphere as your car burns through fossil fuel.

Yes I have. Apparently you haven't driven a jetta. how about a jetta sportwagen TDI? driven one of those? Probably not. Even at high speed legal limits, lets say 70, like it is here in mn, how long can you run on that electric battery? Thats where your torque comes from. Whats your power and torque rating of the gas motor? The Jetta will make that torque all day long. Hell, I can TOW with a jetta.

haha ok

19,000 $ for a TDI Sportwagen Jetta... Its more practical. More Powerful, cleaner...sportier... AND gets around 50 mpg. You can feel great knowing you are hardly polluting at all running biodiesel.

Prius cost?

MSRP,

$27,000

What?

Sorry, don't usually look for hummer vs prius comparisons.

I myself drive a 2.0T vw GTI, I get around 30mpg ont he freeway, and 25 average. I am fine with that, and don't expect more. I enjoy 200hp and 200 ft/lbs of torque. I enjoy wide rubbered tires that hug to the road amongst other things.

I also have a 1984 Volkswagen Rabbit, that USED to be a diesel. It now has a carburated 16v engine in it, and i get around 7mpg in that. Granted its nearly a race car....makes similar hp to the turbo engine mentioned above, without the turbo.

I've HAD many old vw diesel cars. Many Many, I'm looking for one all the time... I need to have another. I loved the fuel economy. They CAN run on biodiesel if you swap out some seals. How does a 45mpg car running biodiesel for around 3000$ sound? Compared to 27,000$? To me? it sounds awesome.

The elitism even you admit really gets me. It's too bad. I think the hybrid technology is viable in some situations. However...I think most people get the car to do a feel good thing about themselves. Buying a prius really doesn't pay, and the whole hypermiling in one thing just doesn't make sense to me unless you are doing it for reasons such as "saving the environment". Thats fine, thats your deal.

Diesel technology, especially biotech, is affordable, and can be used NOW! Its usable in all types of vehicles, and doesnt need to be a tiny slow car to make it work, and be efficient. It boggles my mind why more people are not into it. I myself could never own or drive a prius. They are far too slow and spaceshipish. Running a TDI in a Golf or Jetta puts me in a car thats available in many trim options, and even with 4motion (awd) if I chose. Hybrids just seem silly. Especially when they put them in some big escalade... anyways...


/rant

 

Even on biodiesel a TDI isn't close to having lower emissions that a Prius. Biodiesel only really effects the release of CO2. It actually increase NOx and only slightly lowers PM. VW only warranties the use of B5 in the 2009 common-rail diesel. A person would be a fool to run B100 in a 2009 as it would destroy the NOx catalyst and DPF.

The Prius doesn't it run on battery power at highway speeds. It runs on the gas engine and adds electric power when needed. It can run at 70 mph, 80mph, 90 mph until the tank runs dry.

I own a 2003 TDI and have driven the 2009. They are very nice cars BTW.

Your prices are WAY off.
TDI Sedan - $21,999
TDI Wagon - $23,590
2009 Volkswagen Jetta Pricing and Information

Prius - $22,000
2009 Toyota Prius Pricing and Information


Please do some research before posting, you are giving your fellow diesel drivers here a bad name.

 

I got the price of the TDI sportwagen from Volkswagens site. And let me know when you can pick up a prius at that price, and where. I'll go buy one so I can resell it at a pretty premium

Biodiesel runs cleaner than regular diesel, its just how it is. Keep in mind as well, that a jetta sportwagen is FAR from base, where Im pretty sure a prius at 22k is a "budget" prius, correct?

And that was my point about running on battery at high speeds. It doesnt. Whats the point of all that torque if it isn't used anytime i want?

I'd post a few links to some things worth reading to support my opinions, but.... i can't since I'm a n00b. :/

 

Don't worry, we Prius drivers all know that these trolls get around and pop up every once in a while, be it diesel drivers or otherwise.

This just raises a question on my mind which is: how far are these trolls allowed to continue writing here on PriusChat? I mean it's obvious this guy has no knowledge at all about the Prius and environmental issues, it's obvious he is not willing to learn, it's obvious he didn't even care to investigate neither before nor after the first post, and it's obvious he just likes to bash.

On my forum and upon a second post like the one he did a moments back he would be banned for life. First time offense he would receive a warning asking to do some investigation, kind like what I did and you did now, and second time he would be showed the door. What is the current policy here on PriusChat?

Now... :focus: how many cars do you get in the USA that can actually compete with the Prius on emissions? Is it frequent or is it a new trend? I assume you need to have urea injection on all of them... right? If I want to learn I have to ask you, since like I said earlier these cars are nothing but a "mirage" here in Europe.

 

The 2009 Jetta TDI does not use urea; it has a NOx Storage Catalyst (NSC), in addition to a DPF. To the best of my knowledge, all other T2B5 diesel vehicles currently available in the U.S. have urea-SCR (e.g., MB ML320 BlueTec).

It should be noted that all diesel vehicles (light-duty through heavy-duty) produced in the U.S. since January 2007 have been OEM equipped with DPF (in order to comply with emission regs). As of January 2010, all heavy-duty diesel trucks will be required to meet a stricter NOx regulatory emission limit (0.2 g/bhp-hr). It is my understanding that most diesel engine manufacturers will be using urea-SCR to comply.

 

One way of comparing real-world economy between two vehicles is to drive them over the same course. Here in the UK, journalists often drive a route that covers the length of the whole country from North to South, a total of 880 miles, to compare the fuel economies of different cars.

You can read about how the Prius fared on such a trip here. It managed a very respectable 57 mpg (US) at an average speed of 38 mph.

An Astra ECO4, which is a diesel, managed the same route at 75 mpg (US) and an average speed of 53 mph (here).

In another long distance drive against a BMW 520d (which is a larger, much faster and heavier car with double the power), the Prius managed 48.1 mpg, while the BMW managed 50.3 mpg (here).

So the point is that in real-life driving you don't always need to get a smaller diesel car to get comparable fuel economy.

 

That's very good, congratulations for having these regulatory emission limits. I wish we had them here on Europe.

But my question is still unanswered... how is the end result? How do they compare with the Prius? Have these systems managed to get even close to the current Prius emission control system?

Of course we would have to wait a bit more (2 months) to get the 2010 Prius specs, and be fair in comparing contemporaneous cars... but ok.

Next Prius will have different specs for North American and European markets, where the CO2 emissions will be near 90 g/km, and engine displacement will stay about the same, while yours will go up a good notch...

 

You really like to bash don't you?

Facts:

1) The Prius takes time for you to learn how to efficiently drive it;
2) I've seen test drives like these where the "journalist" managed to do 7 l/100km, which is something I never managed to do, not even trying!
3) We've all seen several of these "road tests" and some very strange results getting published. Some of us went to the trouble of re-doing those tests on our own, and the results were quite different... some of these magazines and publications were in deep trouble trying to explain how this happened to the press independency supervising authority on their countries...
4) I did one of this rebuttals myself with a fellow friend on a Renault Megane 1.5dCi (the best selling diesel here), and the whole test was filmed and sent to the press. It was quite amusing. If you would know how to read Portuguese I would tell you to read this: Anexo à Press-Release de 2008-11-07 - Prius-PT
5) Your biased and unfair look is well seen when you mention the road test to Switzerland. If you can't see why and how this test was paid for and why it was all but a balanced test, I won't even waste my time with you.

Why don't you mention also the TopGear test of having a BMW M3 going behind a full-throttle Prius on the race track? It would fit your mind like a glove!

P.S. - Post editing note: did you hear that the Hummer is also more environmentally friendly than the Prius? You can read about it all over the internet! There was a lot of press articles written as well!!! It must be true!!! It must be!!!

 

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/toyota_pc_a0140628_1d5_pz_hevge.pdf (AT-PZEV Prius)


http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2009/volkswagen_pc_a0070271_2d0_l2_diesel.pdf (LEV II Jetta TDI)

(Grams/mile)

Emission......................LEV II Jetta TDI….......AT-PZEV II Prius............SULEV II/Bin 2 Limit

NMHC/NMOG.......................0.012.......................0.009.........................0.010
CO.....................................0.4...........................0.1..........................1.0/2.1
NOx...................................0.05.........................0.01...........................0.02
Highway NOx.......................0.03.........................0.01...........................0.03/----
PM.....................................0.000........................----............................0.01
HCHO................................----.............................----...........................0.004
US06 HC+NOx......................0.08.........................0.03.............................0.14
US06 CO............................ 0.01........................0.00.............................8.0
SC03 HC+NOx......................0.12.......................0.04..............................0.20
SC03 CO.............................0.02........................0.1...............................2.7

 

OK, we've seen these numbers earlier, they are self-explanatory, but is the Jetta the only diesel within the same approximate class of the Prius using this emission control mechanisms?

Are you saying the Jetta is an exception for the diesel cars kind of the same way the Prius is an exception for the gasoline cars (as far as emission control is concerned)?