why no oil pressure, water temp gauges

Re: Why not oil pressure, water temp gauges?

+1 on Hobbit's post.

Nobody needs extra gauging, just drive the car.

However, most everyone who wants to achieve better than EPA FE/MPG figures
will need extra gauging to understand and internalize, and in turn be able to
routinely and consistently take advantage of the subtleties of the Prius' control
algorithms.

Toyota would be doing us all a favor by offering an optional "guage package"
that would replace the nearly useless yellow-bar "graph" with a Canview-like
info display. It is my hope that other car makers will provide such a package
and push Toyota in this direction... maybe for the 2010, Gen 3-PHEV...

Let us pray.

[Edit] In the meantime, get a ScanGauge, and get real control of your FE/MPGs.

 

Re: Why not oil pressure, water temp gauges?

Based on the price of their other options and/or packages, and I'm not complaining, it would cost much more than the SGII and have less function. And not moveable between vehicles.
I'm from the old school, and like to see the gauges also instead of lights or nothing at all.
Gauges have given me advanced warnings over the years that have proved beneficial. And lights, "idiot lights" as we used to call them have left me down on several occasions over the years. I have installed gauges on a couple cars over the years that did not have the basics. And wish I had on one that was on it's 3rd engine when we traded it in.

Running the SGII on our Avalon right now. It has been helpful in improving our MPG on the Avalon. There are suttle differences, in driving habits, that affect MPG, that are neither obvious nor noticeable without the additional gauges.

Hobbit seems to be very knowledgeable and has been a major contributor to PC. However, he tends to believe he knows what is best for everyone else also. And seems to be unable or unwilling to agree with someone elses needs, requirements or opinions, if they do not agree with his opinion. I highly respect his opinions and appreciate and have learned much from his many posts. He has much experience. You just have to understand his pinions are absolutes and there is only one correct opinion, Hobbits.

Please, I am not putting down Hobbit. I look forward to his posts and opinions. I'm just trying to warn you if you try to convince him that yours may have value too. It's easier to just agree to disagree, which is a lost skill these days. It's saved many friendships for me.

 

The Energy screen is essential, being able to Glide, stealth and warp stealth are "Abolutley Essential'
And the essential task at hand should be manipulating the Prius to run on no gas as much as possible.

My point is the type of instrumentation the OP asks for, oil pressure, water temp, ICE RPM are irrelevant to the average owner. I clearly stated the tach could be useful only to an enthusiast.

I completely understand how the tach is useful, but it's not essential.
I get a solid and consistent average MPG that even the most instrument laden Prius driver would envy. I can attain and maintain much the same high-efficiency RPM sweet spot looking at instintaneous MPG, as I can a tach. Being able to stealth, glide, and warp stealth are the most important skills one can have in this car, and the energy screen is an ideal indicatior of that. For the average person, a tach is useless in any car. Especially an automatic or CVT. It is there for looks and image. A Sienna mini-van has a tachometer, what a joke. I'm sure those soccer-moms really need that.

The type of temp guage the OP speaks of would not give the detailed reading necessary for that purpose. How many folks really understand, care, or are even aware of the operation stages? And without an EV switch, how can they take advantage of the knowledge, even if they did care? It is irrelevant to the ordinary owner. But as I said, it's a tool is available for the enthusiast
.

Toyota offered us pages of info in the form of a owners manual, and you know as well as I how few people read that. If they gave us the detailed info explaining the interrelationship of torque, power curves, rpm and efficientcy, who would understand it? Folks won't even slow down on the interstate, do you really think they are going to optimize their torque curve? What ordinary owner even understands efficient regimes of torque , power and rpm.
The info they gave us is the most direct and relevent. It's the envy of every other hybrid.

Your argument basically restated everything I said would be important only to an enthusiast. My point is they gave us what is relevent for basic hybrid operation and manipulation, and most folks don't get that.
The Prius is a car that can run on no gas, so the object should be to maximize how much time it does that.

 

You don't need an EV switch to make the car go into S4, but you do need to know the engine coolant temp where the transition is. I use this info every morning on my commute to work.

I see both sides of this argument - I am on the side that likes to have as much info as possible. It wouldn't have cost Toyota much at all to provide this info. They probably do not realize how many engineers and tech types are buying the car.

 

S4...so now you can stealth and glide at will. But if you don't know how to stealth and glide, what good is the knowledge that the car is in S4 ? And what more direct indication of achieving a glide or steath is there than on the Energy screen? Oil Pressure and water temp sure won't tell you.

 

I totally agree as far as the tach goes, although I have really appreciated it on the cars that I've owned and that has had one, including our 2000 Avalon. I too, do not feel it essential for an automatic. However, I do use it for downshifting on the many steep grades here in metro Atlanta, but you're correct, I could probably use the speedometer just as well. But, the tach helped me to determine the speeds at which to shift.

I don't, however, necessarily agree on the water temp and oil gauges. They have given me advanced warnings, and prevented more serious problems, over my 53 years of driving. Lights, however, have failed to give me warnings, early enough, on several occasions, where a gauge would have prevented a breakdown. At least the old lights, seemed to be more about what failed, than a warning that something was changing. One car without gauges was on it's third engine when we got rid of it. Design problem. Oil pressure gauge would have probably prevented catastrophic failure. Our difference of opinion may be due to your qualification, "average owner". I perfer the gauges over the lights. I get used to, and learn, the readings of the various gauges, including the amp meter, which the Avalon does not have, but is covered by my SGII.
You are probably correct because of the higher reliability of the newer cars. But I still like to know my alternater is recharging my battery and watch it reduce the ampereage as it recharges after starting the car, especially in cold weather. I like to know I'm not overheating, and if so pull over, when I'm making the 3 mile, approximately 3000', climb up to Brasstown Bald in North Georgia. I like watching my tach on the way bach down to determine when to make the many shifts to avoid burning up your brakes. I could listen to the engine scream, but without a tach to start, I would know what pitch represented approaching the redline. And I wish I had an oil pressure gauge in our '82 VW Quantum Wagon, which had a serious sludge problem due to an underdesigned cooling system. VW replaced first engine, second one was out of warranty, my $2500.00. I switched to Mobil1 for 3rd engine. I was not aware of the sludge problem until the 3rd engine. By the time the light came on it was too late. An oil pressure gauge would have warned me of an oil flow problem.

But I agree, you are probably right in saying that the average owner would not use them anyway. I would venture to say that today, many drivers have never even seen under their hood.

 

The Energy screen does not give enough info in a timely manner IMO. You are entitled to have a different opinion.

 

I didn't say you needed an EV switch to make S4 happen, I said you need it to take advantage of knowing what the 4 stages of operation are, by forcing operations in the early stages, that would otherwise not be possible until S4. So without an EV switch, there is no gain by knowing your coolant temp. I know when I'm in s4 because my car will glide at will. I also know when to use my EV switch in earlier stages to force it, without use a water temp guage. It's not essential

Enough info about what?

I love my scanguage. But it's not essential, it's Gee Wiz.
The Energy screen is essential for Mr and Mrs. ordinary to understand and manipulate what the Prius is capable of.
A picture is worth 1000 words, or digits.
That's why civic hybrid owners are for the most part bored with their cars right off the bat. And they have a tachometer. But not an energy screen

 

Just an aside. Like many terms that try to draw a line in the sand, the word "essential is a relative term. Like porn, it's in the eye of the beholder. It's easy to define the extremes, not so easy to agree, as to were to draw the line, especially if the individual's requirements have not been defined or agreed to.
My wife's home did not have an inside toilet in her first few years, I did not have garage door openers, ice cube makers, remote door locks, cell phones, fax machines, internet access, etc., for most of my life. I'm sure you get my point.
Defining and agreeing on another's essentials is always difficult. One of the many hats I've worn over the years was as a Product Planner. It is very easy to mis-guess what the user's essentials are if you don't have a thorough understanding of their particular requirements.
Please forgive me for my diatribe. It was definitely not essential. I just felt like expressing it. I really do like my Braun coffee maker, of course it's not essential, I can use the microwave, well that's not essential either, I can use the stove, or maybe I'll just have juice, or maybe..............hummmm, let's see!

 

Even if you had an oil gauge it probably would have not done you any good. On most "mainstream" cars the battery and oil gauges are "disguised" as dummy lights. Most oil gauges simply go to the 3/4 mark if oil pressure is above the dummy light pressure (4 psi if I recall correctly for most). When the pressure drops below the threshold, then the gauge goes to zero. Same with the battery gauges. Temperature though is usually accurate as it is very inexpensive to gauge temperature. On my 1997 F-150 the oil and battery gauges never moved one iota (dummy gauges) when the truck was running regardless of engine rpm's or battery load.

Honda on some of its cars has gone as far as coupling the "dummy" oil pressure gauge with the tachometer to give the impression it is actually measuring true oil pressure.

Don't get me wrong, I too like gauges. But automobiles today are so reliable that gauges would just unnecessarily add to the final cost of the automobile. Simple and even irregular servicing of your coolant and oil systems will keep your Prius running for decades to come.

Rick
#4 2006

 

------------------The Prius Energy Monitor-------------------
------------------------Achieve Stealth, Glide, Warp Stealth------------------------​

_________________________________________________

 

But RPMs and HV current make it a hell of a lot easier and more accurate than the Energy screen.

 

A picture is worth 1000 digits.
I'm sure the person that wants to know how to get into READY mode will agree.

RPM's and HV current won't easily mean much to them.

 

Agreed. It wouldn't have cost anything to add another MFD screen with such information. (Okay, the person who programmed the others would have had to spend a few hours configuring a new screen from the same existing info that Scan Gauge reads--other than that it is free.)

Tech savvy types are over represented among Prius owners and it would be wise to cater to them as they have more money to spend on vehicles than Joe Sixpack. There are plenty of things I really don't need that the Prius and many other vehicles have, so the non-essential argument goes by the wayside.

 

If the new Honda Insight provides extensive display-screen info, Toyota will follow.

Note: there is not even a hint or rumor that Honda will do so. I'm just stirring up trouble

 

Name one thing the Prius has that you would sacrifice, for an oil pressure or water temp guage.......?

 

I would gladly and readily do away with the fat yellow bar graph to get coolant
temp, RPM, IGN, etc on the MFD... oil pressure would be a distant 9th or 10th
choice.

If I were pushed very hard, I would give up the fuel tank bladder to get oil pressure. ;-)

 

That 'fat yellow bar graph' is the foundation for feedback that motivates people for better fuel economy and demonstrates the Prius' abilities are sustainable. Imagine how boring the PA. P&G drama coverage would have been without it. And every other post about fuel economy.

I'll show off my consumption bar graph, you show off your coolant temp.....woo-hoo

The ICE wouldn't maintain oil pressure long without it. ;-)

When they make the battery big enough, I'll be happy to give it up too.

 

I recall an article I read over 30 years ago that told why automakers don't like to put oil pressure, battery voltage, and ammeter gauges in their autos - with the exception of top-end sports cars. It seems that John Q. Public was constantly mis-interpreting the gauges and swamping the dealer with what they thought were problems with their cars, when in fact the vehicle was fine. For example, they saw the fluctuation in oil pressure from the engine at cruise versus idle as a problem with the engine, the drop in charge current at idle as a problem, etc. So, the automakers simply decided to remove the gauges. 'Idiot' lights were much simpler, cheaper, and something the vehicle owner understood: Got a problem... the proverbial light comes on!

 

9G-man,

We'll have to agree to disagree on this. I think the fat yellow bars are a
waste of valuale display space. Even if they can be seen as valuable, they
could be a lot thinner/smaller and retain their value, and the freed up
space given over to RPM, IGN, coolant temp, etc.

Rather than hijacking this thread, we could go here to further discuss this:

http://priuschat.com/forums/fuel-economy/42280-mfd-energy-graph-mpg-h-better-way.html

If we're talking about physical changes, they would be during construction.
Since the non-North American Prii don't have the bladder, who needs it?
Especially as it's not an essential part of a PZEV (Partial Zero Emissions
Vehicle):

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-t...essary-pzev-certification-apparently-not.html

Getting rid of the bladder would also resolve many "guess gauge" issues.

We can only hope that under pressure from other manufacturer's promised
offerings, Toyota will replace/upgrade the outdated elements of the HSD
package in the 2010 Gen 3 Prius.