2009-2010 Honda Insight

What have you heard? It looks like Honda will still use the IMA system, which does not seem to be nearly as advanced as the Toyota HSD. Does the car have better appointments, more size, more usable space, better warranty, better gas mileage? Does it cost less?

I certainly would be interested if it topped the Prius in some of those categories. I think Honda makes a great automobile, but it doesn't seem like this one beats the Prius -- yet, anyway.

 

I just wonder what type of battery tech this newer Honda Insight will be using.....

Looking at its 'concept' photo, this new Insight looks so Prius!
Geez, have they all reached the ultimate aero-dynamics design shape and can't vary for even more improvement?

 

COST REDUCTION is the focus in the press release.

There is nothing stating efficiency or emission improvements. In fact, the mention of "70 MPG" from the original Insight undermines that very idea, since that's a measurement using the obsolete EPA estimates against a manual transmission which will not be offered.

Of course, an ASSIST hybrid can only offer so much anyway. It lacks a second motor and split-device that are a key design feature of the FULL hybrid. The only motor there is probably quite a bit smaller still and not liquid cooled either. So, the ultimate market is quite different than that for Prius anyway.

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I don't see any practical difference between the Prius and Honda hybrid designs until one becomes a plug-in. Until then I think most people will play the money game and if Honda can undercut Prius by at least $2000 and have city MPG > 40 they have a competitive product.

I know that 3rd party aftermarket plug-in kits for the Prius are now becoming available, but it is going to take years and tens of thousands of conversions before they become a convincing selling point. In fact, I'd say some time after OEM's are already making plug-ins themselves.

Hybrids are just one solution to the partial power, regen on braking, and engine auto-stop issues of overall petrol car efficiency. Anything that has a better cost:improvement ratio is competitive, regardless of the specific implementation all else (reliability, emissions) being equal.

 

As John says, the competitiveness of the new Honda will be in its price: very significantly below the Prius.

Where I differ from John is in his feeling that the HSD is the best idea available at this time. HSD has at its heart the melding of the gas and electric systems to achieve high fuel efficiency. But, while it may be adapted to plug-in, I feel that both HSD and IMA are ill-suited to plug-in. I think that an EV with range extender is a better solution than either "full" or "partial" hybrid, because the range extender needs to do nothing but power the generator, and can therefore be designed and tuned for exactly this purpose, and can run at just one rpm and power output, always exactly at its best efficiency. And additionally, the engine can be whatever is found to be most efficient: It can be a Stirling engine, a gas turbine, a steam engine, whatever does the job best. The Otto and Atkinson engines, and even the Diesel, have been chosen for their ability to deliver power on demand rapidly. But once you choose a serial hybrid and decouple the engine from the wheels, you no longer have this requirement. A Stirling engine is more efficient, but starts and stops very gradually. Unsuitable in a conventional car, but no disadvantage at all in a series hybrid.

Therefore, if the Honda matches Prius FE and beats the price, it will appeal to a very large segment of the market. The Prius delivers excellent value for cost, but for many people, that cost is simply out of reach. Many people will gladly give up some of the size and features to get an efficient car cheaper.

It's really too bad that GM has no intention of ever actually building the Volt, because the concept is ideal. Give it 100 miles plug-in range and it would be my dream car.

 

Where is the proof that GM will never build the Volt? Why all the show then? Has their charade of building the 'fake' Volt actually increased their sales? It makes no business sense to not have some sort of electric vehicle ready within a few years. The market is definitely swinging that way. My $.02.
-Peter

 

Though the major short-coming is cost.

The SERIES hybrid (don't get me started on GM's marketing terminology spin) simply needs too much battery for what's affordable & competitive in today's world.

Shooting for the 2020 efficiency mandate, that makes sense. But what an automaker does in the decade between and what the non-SERIES fleet is following 2020 is an entirely different matter.

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We are lucky owners of both a 2004 Prius AND a 2000 Honda Insight! Yes we have an 8 year old Insight and my husband loves it! As with the Prius, very few problems and it is a perfect commuter car for him. Only problem with it is two seater and very low to the ground so I am in fear for my life around speeding SUVs! Tiny so you can park it almost anywhere though! Great in an urban area! Don't know all the changes they are making in the new version but we got on the hybrid bandwagon the FIRST time gas went to over $2 a gallon!

 

I think we really won't know where things stand until the '10 Prius hits the ground. I agree that Honda, VW, and others are gaining ground on the Prius, but bear in mind the Prius in its current form is 5+ years old, and much of it goes back 10+ years. Toyota has the advantage here, and its theirs to lose. If they drop the ball, they open the door for the competition. As long as they keep heading in the right direction, and keep the R&D moving forward they should remain in the lead for the foreseeable future. Based on whats been said about the new Prius, plus the lower emissions of the newer Camry and Lexus hybrids and the improved regen efficiency of the Camry I'd say Toyota seems on track to stay ahead of the competition. Only time will tell though.

I disagree that the Volt is a superior design. Everything I have read indicates that there is no clear winner between series hybrids and parallel hybrids. Both shine under different conditions. The beauty of the HSD is that it allows the Prius to run in either parallel or series mode depending on what is best at the time. For example, at steady state on the freeway the Prius' Atkinson cycle engine is already pretty efficient. Its efficiency gets even better if you Pulse and Coast to keep the ICE running at a reduced duty cycle near its peak efficiency. Under the same conditions the series hybrids engine will have to be substantially more efficient to overcome the losses associated with converting mechanical energy to electrical energy, electrical to chemical energy (in the battery), chemical energy back to electrical energy, and electrical energy back to mechanical energy. Even if you assume all of those processes are 90% efficient, the end to end process is only 65% efficient compared to just using the ICE to power the wheels. So if the Prius Atkinson cycle engine can be driven at its peak efficiency of 37%, the engine driving a series hybrid would have to be 57% efficient to come out even. That sounds tough to me. Now obviously there are also a lot of situations where the ICE can't be driven near peak efficiency and the series hybrid comes out ahead. Of course the Prius already runs as a series hybrid in many of these situations.

Eventually when batteries are cheap enough there may be a financial advantage to not needing the HSD system and PSD. Of course at that point people may start to jettison the ICE all together for the same reason.

Rob

 

All Honda Hybrids are PZEVs, and they're the only manufacturer to be able to say that.*

*Ford too, but technically, it's only the Escape/Mariner.

 

what about toyota?

 

Not all toyota hybrids can meet PZEV emission standards.

 

So... just one model (Civic) available qualifies as "all" ?

That's interesting spin.

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Not true. Insight with manual transmission was only ULEV. Accord hybrid was only LEV-II, no better than non-hybrid Accord.

If you want to count only what's being sold now, you ought to include Honda in the * denote as well. Honda sell only one hybrid model (Civic Hybrid AT-PZEV).

Toyota's HSD have SULEV (Super Ultra Low) emission even for those with 8 cyl engines (LS600h), better than the Insight. HSD has proven to be scalable from 1.5L to 5.0L gas engine while reducing emission greatly. However, IMA is only suitable for small cars with inconsistent emission levels.

 

Technically, the last year the accord hybrid was sold, it was PZEV.

Point is tho, Toyota does lag behind everyone else in PZEV vehicles.

 

Everyone else?

In terms of what?

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Models available.

 

The thread just wouldn't be complete without nonsense like that.

Next thing we'll be told is that the 1 Escalade-Hybrid and 26 Aura-Hybrid sold last month will make twice the difference that just Prius alone, because that's twice as many models.

Of course, you didn't answer the question anyway. I asked WHO and you only provided the WHAT. The proper response would have been Toyota, Honda, GM, and Ford. Then I would have asked why you excluded so the others... like Nissan and Chrysler and VW... then point out the often overlooked Kia and Hyndai, plus those in China and India. The limited answer was selective scope, feeding only data in favor of a particular view. Consider the big picture. Honda's 200,000 production plan with only half going to the US does exactly that. Multiple models of the same vehicle size & type doesn't help when there's only a few available to purchase in the first place.

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Well, you could say 'interesting' spin, or typical. Read johns subsequent posts & you'll see the patern is the same. It's up to YOU to find the spin. Champion of the non-Toyota look at things. Maybe he's Malorn's kin.

My all time favorite is where he rushes to the defense of GM land barges by saying, "Toyota has some too". Hoy Vey.