Any one else NOT sold on a plug - in?

If you do mostly highway driving then a plug in car with a short EV range would probably not be good for you. If it had a range long enough to cover your commute round trip then it probably would.

There have been discussions on this before and everything I've seen indicates that grid electricity is cheaper than gas by a decent amount and it is also cleaner at point of generation, though that is subject to the production methods (and your view of nuclear electricity generation in some cases). Further the electrical point by your own PV solar panels and you really can move into some fantastic territory. Cost of PV arrays is likely to drop quite a bit in the next few years.

A plug in hybrid still has a full gasoline engine, but a plug in full electric vehicle has a lot of other benefits in terms of mechanical complexity - though there will likely be a supply issue with capable service centers for a while.

 

A plug in hybrid would save money, as electricity rates are lower per mile than gas rates (and a hybrid still uses gas to power it).

Even better, in areas where there is different rates for different hours, you could charge your car at off-peak times, and pay a lower rate.

For traveling, you would just rely on the gas engine/hybrid. What's not to love?

 

Some power companies charge more for power during the day then the night... Which means you can charge your car for a minor expense, which replaces gas as an expense, depending on the range of the plug-in.


The environmental impact is also improved because:

There are many ways to generate electricity (including renewable sources like solar/hydro/wind).
Generating electricity is much more efficient then using gas. The efficiency of a power plant is greater then 80%, whereas engines are less then 25% efficient.

 

- At the US Average power cost of 9c/kwh, a Prius will run on electric for ~2c/mile, vs. ~9c/mile currently on gas.

- On the freeway even a conversion kit you can buy today will drive at ~100mpg by using both the gas ICE and electric motor together.

- If you can't plug in, it just runs like a regular hybrid.

- As dirty as electricity is, its about the same as running the gas engine in the Prius (which is to say much cleaner than most gas ICE cars). If you're not happy with that, you can buy renewable energy for an additional 1-3c per kwh (~0.5c/mile).

- Its generally much easier to clean up a few thousand power plants than it is 250 million private vehicles.

- Most people will charge their PHEVs at home overnight, when its most convenient. Electricity also happens to be a lot cheaper at night (~2c/kWh or 0.5c/mile here in AZ). Power companies have a lot of surplus capacity at night that they would be very happy to have a use for.

- Current DOE estimates are that 80% of the entire light duty vehicle fleet could be converted to 33mile PHEVs without requiring any upgrades to the grid. This would probably require a smart charger though, that would adjust its charge rate depending on grid load.

- Plans are even in the works for a smart charging network that could actually give power back to the grid when needed to level loads and prevent brown/black outs. This would make the grid even more robust than it is today.

- Unlike the oil industry, the power grid is mostly regulated and power companies cannot just raise prices at will.

- Worst case you can put solar on your roof, and charge for ~2c per mile guaranteed for the next 20-25 years. Only downside is you have to pay for it upfront. That investment still returns a ~10-30% annual ROI compared to buying gas, depending on assumptions.

- Plugin hybrids, and eventually EVs are the only path I have seen that can substantially lower operating costs, shift to pure domestic energy, reduce or eliminate emissions (carbon and smog), all while requiring no major infrastructure upgrades or technological breakthroughs.

Rob

 

I haven't been sold a plug-in yet. Still waiting.

 

1. A car running on electricity will be less polluting than a gas only car even with most polluting power source like coal. But more importantly as power generation moves towards zero carbon source the pollution will be reduced.
2. Electric charge will be a fraction of gas price. It's variable but 2 cents/mile is generally quoted.
3. When on vacation use it with just gas. Being a hybrid it will hofully be comparable to prius.
4. Benefit with mainly freeway use will depend on the design of the car. Something like Volt will run the first 40 miles or so in electric only mode. A plug-in prius may be less beneficial in that case. But unless you drive at constant speed all the way, I guess that would still considerably reduce gas usage.

The main reason for not buying one is probably going to be price. Other reasons may pop up when somebody really release one.

 

duplicate

 

what is it you're wanting to hear?

The only thing that hasn't been address is age. while a prius battery is designed to last 300k+ miles... plug in batteries go through actual drain cycles. one man stated, based on his plug in, that the plug in batteries may last 150k+

I have yet to hear someone address recharging the plug in battery with regenerative braking... as i can see how keeping the hybrid battery charged yet trying to limit it's charge may get frustrating.

Don't get me wrong... i would love a plug in. I simply can't afford that kind of up front investment right now.

which brings me to just that... it's an investment.. as is solar.. or any other new technology.. hopefully it pays out but only time will tell.

 

I can't wait until Daryl chimes in on this.

Don't forget maintenance costs are drastically lowered on pure EVs (No ICE, Oil Changes, etc)

 

It seems like there is a lot of concern about the CO2 EMISSIONS released from power stations if we switched to electric vehicles or PHEVs.

Here's how the CO2 emissions figures pan out for vehicles of equivalent (Prius) size:

Regular gasoline vehicle - 150 g/km
Prius hybrid vehicle - 104 g/km
Electric vehicle (from COAL only) - 100 g/km
Electric vehicle (from GAS only) - 50 g/km
Electric vehicle (current grid mix) - 70 g/km
Electric vehicle (from WIND only) - ~1 g/km

Thus, even when the electricity comes from the dirtiest possible source (ie coal), it is still better in terms of CO2 emissions to switch to electric vehicles. Once you have an established fleet of EVs, then you can then go straight to the utilities to get the emissions down, rather than getting the whole world to buy new cars.

This is all based on EPA mileage, 5 miles per kWh EV, and established CO2 outputs from various power sources per kWh generated (ie 800 g/kWh for coal, 400 g/kWh for gas, 20 g/kWh for nuclear, 10 g/kWh for wind). Note though, that the published CO2 emissions for vehicles (eg 104 g/km for the Prius) ONLY includes what is emitted directly from the exhaust pipe - it does not include any of the additional CO2 emissions derived from exploration, drilling, transportation, refining and delivery etc of gasoline to refuelling stations.

 

BINGO !!!

(plus, there will be no more dependence on foreign oil ! In addition to not funding enemy countries' militaries, just think of how this will help us out with the trade deficit! $$$ TRILLIONS will be saved!) :usa2:

 

I think one thing the original poster asked that hasn't been addressed yet is the cost to charge the PHEV overnight. People have quoted rates per kWh and conversions to cost per mile driven. However, I haven't seen anyone with knowledge/experience on here yet answer the "how much will my electric bill change?" question that's implied in the original post.

My gut feeling is that you're looking at significantly less than a dollar a night to recharge a PHEV with say a 30-mile battery range but I'm wondering if anyone has first-hand experience or technical knowledge to address this. Let's use this scenario:

I'm in the northeast and my electricity is a flat residential rate day or night that works out to $0.16/kWh. I commute ~21 miles round trip each day plus maybe a couple more miles for errands on the way home. I have a PHEV with an ~30 mile battery range that I charge fully every night. What is the change on my electric bill going to be at the end of the month compared to the previous month when I didn't have a PHEV assuming all other loads remain the same?

Any thoughts?

 

I like the idea of all electric except the range part. Would they have a speacial plug, how long to charge, and if it had a special plug would we run into the same problem as E85 or hydrogen?

Some one else suggested a built in chip to track usage(to pay).

As for a home charge, I think the formula is, amps x volts x 24 divided by 1000. If you had off peak it could be at a reduced rate dependant on the plug and voltage.

 

Based on existing no.s you can expect about 5 mi/kWh. If we round your daily usage to 25 miles/day 30days/month, then the bill will go up by $0.80/day or $24/mth. Assuming this car replaces a prius with 50mpg this willl save about 15gallons of gas per month. Obviously it will be much better if this car replaces a non-hybrid.

 

Is this a serious post, or are you just baiting the EV nuts on PC?

Tom

 

snakeman, I am also in the Northeast (PSNH) and my kWh cost averages .16 kWh. With the hymotion 5kWh pack if it is 100% depleted it should cost .80 a night to fully charge. I am expecting more like a 3kWh charge which is more like .48 a night. I have my killawatt meter and I will let you know what actually is used. Also for my daily commute, if half (13 miles) is now directly attributed to the Hymotion pack that would average .0369 cents per mile. (My calculation on petrol use at 48 mpg is .0833 cpm) I'm a newbie at these calculations and could be off.
Also all costs listed in USD.
Chris

 

This information has already been provided in the posts above. The posters don't know many miles you drive so you have to do the math yourself.

It is easy... Take .02 and multiply it by the miles driven in a month.

i.e. 1000 miles per month X .02 = $20.00.



G

 

With respect to grid excess capacity, I'm guessing that has a different meaning for different electricity sources.

For example, a hydro dam is a case where water is either going through the turbines and producing electricity, or over the spillway and not. If we wanted to harness the "excess capacity" we could do so at no additional cost since the water is going down river anyway.

Now with a fuel-fired plant, I'm not so sure there is any real "excess capacity": they may burn less fuel at night because of less demand but in order to supply more energy at night they would have to burn fuel. In this case it seems to me the excess capacity is really the ability to produce more electricity, but we have to pay for it. It's not clear to me why this version of excess capacity would be offered at a lower price than at any other time during the day.

I guess that's a long way of saying the true cost of excess capacity, and it's ultimate price to us, may depend to a large degree on how the electricity is produced.

 

There are a lot of efficiency numbers floating around this thread.

Even though electricity production efficiency may be quite high, I wonder if anyone knows what the usage efficiency is with an electrical-to-chemical-to-electrical battery storage system is? Please tell me it's better than burning gas in an ICE