Gas is still too cheap

So the answer is, we throw money at the problem?

What's so magical about $4?
Do we just let the speculators manipulate the market and pocket the profits?

Haven't there been other developed nations paying approx $4 all along? What effect has it had on them other than down sizing their vehicles? I'm not aware of any miracle fixes from any of them.

btw.. Didn't California a while back spend a shit pot full of money on > 50k wind generators that sit idle in some desert?

You call that change??
Sounds to me like more TAX and SPEND.

Where's the plan?? Oh let me guess that's a secret for now.

 

You are so right Dave.

Have any of your read the State of the World 2007: Our Urban Future publication? I think you guys would enjoy it as it has a lot to talk about concerning the subject of transportation and what other countries are doing to green up that sector and details the host of other benefits. Here is an excerpt from Chp #4 Greening Urban Transportation:

Here is the newest one:
State of the World 2008: Innovations for a Sustainable Economy

 

i think i am right on as well... its amazing to me that something so obvious is completely beyond someone's comprehension... dont look at is as fighting the high price of gasoline or the time for ROI...

just look at it as just plain old change... change always happens for the same reason and pretty much in the same way. there are a million examples of it to examine...

with all the now very well known advantages to driving a car... do you think the first car was welcomed with open arms??? oh no...not even close...

there was massive resistance... just massive...people fought cars with everything they had...no one was willing to give up their horse... but "cars" had nothing to do with it... it was "change"... it was learning to do something different. no matter how much it benefited someone, they still fought it, until they had no choice but to accept it... they did it, found out it actually did improve their lives...

well fossil fuel vehicles have run their course... in the grand scheme of things, they were actually around much longer than they should have been... like tobacco, the oil companies did what they could (and they still do!!) to extend our reliance on oil... but like i said at the beginning, its become so obvious now that any amount of disinformation is now longer effective on anyone except the lowest extremes of the bell curve the represents human understanding.

sure, it will take a bit... after all, few things have been so integrated into our lives like oil...

 

As Ronald Reagan would say "There you go again" spouting off without any hint of fact!

Did California spend a shitpot of money on wind gennies that sit idle? I have no idea perhaps you could CITE something!

Other developed nations paying $4 gas have they done something? Just in the Car field, Prius, VW tdi, Daimler smart42, Honda insight, honda accord hybrid. That enough for you!(These are just the cars that make the American market, there are dozens of others available abroad) How about Germany and Japan leading the world in solar panel production AND installation. Denmark and wind, Iceland and geothermal? As I tried to say and Pat Sparks said better, read outside your comfort zone, read some international newspapers and magazines once in while. It is a big world out there!

As per your "argument" about XOM in your mutual fund. Do you perhaps own any shares in any hedge fund that is involved in buying and selling oil futures? How is this any different?

Icarus

 

The stock market is crashing right now because the price of oil is still spiraling upwards--out of control of supply and demand. Somebody has to get a handle on the oil futures price soon. Wake up, Washington.

Some of you folks don't seem to understand it isn't just about gas prices. It's about the economy in general.

 

too bad one is not in europe to see the alternative energy options, cars, EV's etc... just because its not rubbed in your nose does not mean it does not exist...

how much of our dependence on oil would be solved by ohhh...say a car that seats 4, does upto 65 mph and goes 80 miles on a charge and cost about the same as a Prius??

well, in europe they have that... makes you think that maybe they have addressed the high cost of gas... or maybe we should look at vehicles that get 80 mpg also available in europe??

oh thats right!!! those dont qualify as "miracles"... ok well, nothing really does now does it. even watershed events are not miracles, most are usually existing ways of looking at situations.

well anyway, i could provide links to look at, but then again...if you are interested and i highly doubt that you are, find them on your own

 

I'll do it for you

Here is a nice excerpt from the Sweden governments sustainable development policy pdf.

A Swedish Strategy
for Sustainable Development​

– Economic, Social and Environmental​

 

he wont read it and if he did, he will not believe it.

 

It's not for him my friend. It's for anyone who is following the thread and would like more information.

 

While speculators do indeed play a part in the upward spiral, the simple fact is, long term, too much demand chasing a limited (describe how you want, it it still finite!) supply. Couple that with climate concerns and greenhouse gasses, it only makes sense that we begin to wean ourselves down from the stuff. As such, the title of this thread is "Gas is still too cheap". All the hand wringing in the world is not going to change the facts, regardless of how (some) may want them to.

Icarus

 

You may have me on that one.

I usually check my facts. I neglected to in my haste. I had gathered the info some time ago. Going back and trying to find the specifics, I may have miss-interpreted the facts. Rather than there being 50k generators idle, it read a lot of the early farms had obsolete 50kw and 60kw generators which are now going through a gradual upgrade.

Hey at my age I'm happy if I can remember why I crossed the room.

No I don't own any hedge funds. I do have S&P index fund which I think contains a big oil company.

I'm not against change, I'm just not interested in filling a landfil.
Look how long it took government to react to New Orleans.. and you think they can have alternatives on line within next 10 years?
To insure we keep focused you insist we continure to pay >$4 for gas in the mean time? You would have made a good task master on pyramids.

Well, you're probably right, no sense getting overly concerned.
Who knows maybe government will finally open secret safe in Area 51 and release kinetic energy reactor to industry, thus saving the world from disaster.


In the infamous words of Clayton Williams.. If it's inevitable, just relax and enjoy it.

 

NEW YORK - Oil futures shot above $140 Thursday after OPEC’s president said oil prices could rise well above $150 a barrel this year and Libya said it may cut oil production.

If you ask me I think it's Sovereign funds as well as speculators when I read stuff like this on the AP.

Can we say OPEC has US by the short hairs!

 

You really don't get it? It aint OPEC that has us by the short hairs. We are all tugging at our own short ones! BTW, the US gets most of it's imported oil from Canada first, Mexico second, and I believe Venezuala (sp?) third. Which of these are OPEC members? OPEC has become mostly irrelevant.

Icarus.

I think we still get more than 50% from domestic producers,,,,are they OPEC?

 

That's a far cry from pushing for higher prices. That's just stating the obvious. Are there other politicos who are saying we WILL have $2 gas again? Let me guess... that will come from removing the tax, right? Or maybe giving us our tax money back in the form of an economic incentive - ignoring the debt? The elephant is in the closet, and somebody needs to answer the door. (no, I have no idea what I mean there either).

Being poor sucks. There are people who can't afford a car. Can't afford clothes. Can't afford food. Are you suggesting that we continue to screw up our economy, or national security and our health so that gas is easier to afford? The problem of the working poor is a completely separate issue from the price of gas. Hey... how about instead we put our money and effort into finding something that DOESN'T have all those negatives, and is cheaper than gas! Do you think we'll invest in that if gas is so cheap and easy? Didn't happen before when gas WAS cheap. Now that gas is finally getting expensive, it IS happening. Would have been a LOT less painful for the less wealthy today if we'd worked on this when gas was cheap. But we didn't. When people can afford gas easily, they use it, and they don't worry about what we'll need in the future. We wait until we have a crisis - and then we blame somebody else... you know... like the people who can afford expensive gas.

Jeepers, no. I've never given any of this any thought. Thanks for bringing it to my attention! Good lord. For the record, I've been working toward finding a solution even when gas was cheap. I started driving EVs when gas was $1.50 a gallon in CA. I was trying to help AVOID the situation we're in. Now that we're here, it is pretty obvious that expensive gas is the only thing that will drive innovation.

I'm sorry for your pain... and tap water.

 

I don't get it, this isn't just for governments to fix, every energy user has an obligation to find ways to reduce consumption of oil.

You don't want to pay tax but you want the government to fix everything. I'm confused.

 

Sovereign funds (OPEC - etc.) - speculators

I remember the gaslines! Every other day.

 

Hear me out for must a moment on this one. You are saying that *we* insist on >$4 gas to keep focussed? No. What we're trying to simply point out is that the folks who care NOTHING about change when gas is cheap are demonstrating that >$4 is necessary for the change we need. We're not making gas more expensive or insisting that it stays there. We're just pointing out that it is finally making the changes we need. In other words, the general population sees no need for change when gas is cheap. They ONLY see it when it hurts them in the pocket book. These same folks love to point out how the free market will take care of everything. If EVs were so great, they'd be cheap, etc. Well, now that gas is expensive, they would like us to "do something about it" instead of the other way around. Something like having your cake and eating it too?

I don't want gas to stay expensive and painful. I want us to stop using it. We won't do that when it is cheap and seemingly plentiful.

 

I also think it would help if we all did a lot to help.

One of our problems is Transmission lines, we want to do massive wind projects but then government and envrionmentalist want to shut them down. On one hand, it Interferes with radar cross sections?, the other is it kills birds!

 

We have a company that also builds electric (golf cart size EV) vehicles and they where bought out by Dalmer

 

I also get the part about cost vs effect