Why do Germans go for domestic polluting cars instead of a Prius sold for the same price?

Response to Trip. I am an automotive engineer and agree with the majority of you post... It was perhaps written in haste and without enough detail for this board.

That said however, I think labeling Germans as "going for polluting cars" is inaccurate.

As far as Toyota sales... my understanding from when I worked for the former DaimlerChrysler was that 06' Toyota sales had increased percentage wise more than any other importer. My colleague had indicated that Toyota (incl. Lexus division) had finally gotten the top brass's attention. I am not sure about the accuracy of his claim, but I do know that Toyota is increasing sales in leaps and bounds within Europe by producing good, safe vehicles (note - my background is Safety Restraint).

 

(Additional) Response to Trip

Point #1 "Putting a I6 in it instead of an I4 was a mistake."

Agreed. It is not an "apples to apples" comparison (the vehicles were targeting different buyers... the I6 as you pointed out, unsuccessfully).
Here some data:

 

Point #2 Numerous lifecycle/efficiency studies...
I think you'll agree that there are plenty of Diesel pundits who use data to paint a completely different picture. I do not claim to know the answer on this point. I would suspect that the truth lies somewhere in-between the two, distinct and very different "camps".

Point #3 "The reason that they're diesel..."
(a) I agree with the low-end torque. I have always said that electric motors could be used to make "one hell'va sportscar". I have heard that Porsche, Lotus, and Ferrari are all tinkering with this concept (ignore Tesla... silly, non-OEM exercise).

(b) I think you would agree that well designed diesel's are extremely efficient. Again, I have heard contradictory reports from both camps. My personal opinion is diesel-hybrids (not petrol-hybrids) will be the long-term winner as far as reducing oil consumption/emissions. I have no data however, to support this claim.

Point #4 "It really depends on the hybrid..."
I agree with your statement.

Point #5 "Also, I would not consider the Prius to be "extremely lightweight". It's over 2800 lbs."
The Toyota Prius is equipped with a world class safety restraint system. One of the primary reasons small vehicles have gotten heavier in recent years has to do with advances in Safety Restraints (NOTE - I believe in time these systems will be optimized and subsequently "lose weight"!!!!!!).

It can also be argued that the Prius is extremely lightweight considering the sophistication of it's safety restraint systems.

Point #6 "None that are sold in the US..."
I also agree. I think we will learn a lot more by MY10 year after the next generation diesels are launched.

Point #7 "The Prius' emissions are much smaller than the average diesel's emissions"
Again it depends on the camp and how the data is manipulated.

2007 Toyota Prius versus the 2007 VW Polo is one of the most widely cited examples.
a) The VW has lower CO2 emissions (0.351 lb/mile vs 0.369 lb./mile)
b) The Toyota has lower NOx emissions (sorry lost the figures... but I know that it's been commonly cited).
b) The VW gets better fuel economy (74mpg vs 54mpg - EU)
c) The Toyota is a heavier vehicle with a larger displacement engine (1.5 I4 @ 2800lbs vs 1.4 I3 @ 2400lbs)

Note - I agree that the above study is not a true "apples to apples" comparison and it's difficult to draw any conclusions (if any) other than both cars are "well executed".

Good Post... Cheers!

 

Again, I believe labeling Germans as "going for polluting cars" (since not all are opting for a Prius) is a fairly simplistic and inaccurate statement.

That was the reason behind my original post... even if I am a hated Yank with the last name of "Bauer".


Cheers!

 

No worries mate. You bring up good points. I try to stay away from evangelical arguments about these technologies. Diesels are great when done well. Unfortunately, their introduction into the US in the late 70's was done poorly. I think a series plug-in hybrid with a diesel genset is probably the best short term/midterm solution. The important thing is to press forward with the most promising ideas, whatever they may be.

 

I'm sure I'm late on this post, but I think maybe someone will hear me.

Insert jerk credentials here: I'm a senior at North Carolina State University, studying mechanical engineering. I don't mean to sound like I take myself too seriously, but I do know a bit about the subject...

Yes and no. Plenty of people drive less than 100mph on the autobahn. They're overtaken frequently, but the driving instruction in Germany allows this to be non-problematic. The true problem here, and the big reason why Germans usually pick German cars is simply capability. Most American and Japanese cars are not designed to be stable at these high speeds. A Prius may be capable of 100 mph, but tires that narrow can't hold onto the ground in snow, rain, ice, or even dry pavement under anything but perfect conditions. The chassis of the car is too structurally weak to be able to make use of the little tire that's there.

As for Point #5 - the car is under 2800 lbs. This makes a light car, but such a light car with something around 700 lbs of batteries, is just not safe... I know what the crash tests say, but they're at best taken at 40mph. German cars have been known to crash on the Autobahn severely at over 100mph and result in no injuries. The Prius, imho, could not hope for this.

As far as why diesel, it's because of efficiency and price. Diesel is much cheaper in Europe, but also diesel engines are thermodynamically more efficient than equivalent gas engines. Jetta diesels have been reported to approach 60mpg highway mileage. Audi makes the A2 in Europe, which, for all purposes, is an uglier Prius, but instead is a turbo diesel non-hybrid, and a more capable auto, but also gets 80 mpg highway, largely because of diesel and being the most aerodynamic passenger car in the world (the Prius is the most aerodynamic in the states.

Diesel's low end torque, however, is not desired. Typical German cars often lack low end torque specifically for car dynamics. This makes them slower off the line, however more stable at speed (because torque is what rips tires loose, not horsepower). Electric motors are the worst for this as they have far more torque than a gas engine of the same size or power. This is why electric vehicles are bad sports cars (one of many reasons).

Anyways, I do enjoy the posts, keep up the research and speculation. Hope people make it back to see this post. Keep typing.

 

Nationalism has always been strong in Germany. See WWII.

 

Euro highways are all about speed. 80 mph is the norm. Even higher. The Euro cars get decent mileage, but they are also fast and handle well. Japanese cars are built for reliability and economy.

 

My car has 700lbs of batteries in it?