About the Fog Light issue:

SparrowHawk60 · Apr 4, 2008

On the topic of Fog Lights. Seems there are a few among the posters here that want to jump on a band wagon and respond to any question on the topic with "Their illegal"!
No they are not! I have yet to see anything where the installation of fog lights are illegal. Yes, they may have to meet certain high and mounting restrictions but they can still be installed. Their use maybe prohibited or restricted in some locals and here is where the problems start to come about.
In fact in Virginia, quote from VA V+T law:
Â§ 46.2-1020. Other permissible lights. Any motor vehicle may be equipped with fog lights, not more than two of which can be illuminated at any time, one or two auxiliary driving lights if so equipped by the manufacturer, two daytime running lights, two side lights of not more than six candlepower, an interior light or lights of not more than 15 candlepower each, and signal lights.
Washington State, quote from V+T law:
(2) Fog lamps. Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed two fog lamps mounted on the front at a height of not less than twelve inches nor more than thirty inches above the level surface upon which the vehicle stands and so aimed that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle shall at a distance of twenty-five feet ahead project higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes. Lighted fog lamps meeting the above requirements may be used with lower head lamp beams as specified in RCW 46.37.220.

Would a manufacture put thousands of fog lights on cars, knowing there installation was illegal? Would a dealer sell a new car, knowing that in his/her state they are illegal? I highly doubt it, think of the law suits this would one up. (And Fog lights have been a dealer item for years!)
First off the Federal Law, dictates what lights maybe used on vehicles, other wise know as the DOT. Best bet is if there is no DOT number on the light itself or you can't find where this light is approved by the DOT, it's not a good idea to mount it to your car.
"You can't use them with out your headlights being on!"
Say's who, what state, what law? Quote it please if you can find it.
This is a common sense issue, if the driving conditions are bad enough to need fog lights, chances are you need your headlights as well. Don't forget that having your headlights on means all the other lights on your car will be on as well.
Can't tell you the number of people that drive around in bad weather or dawn or dusk with just their Daytime Running Lights on! Duh! What about the back end of the car?
Yes, you can only use your fog lights on the low beam setting. Again common sense if you need your high beams the fog lights aren't going to help. (Don't confuse fog lights with driving lights, two different things!)
Still haven't found a Law that specifies this. May come anti-dazzle clauses. "New York now has a law that requires dimming auxiliary lights along with high beams in the presence of other traffic. Other states may soon have similar laws. Anti-Glare law, goes into effect 01 Aug 08."
I haven't seen it in print yet.
Well, if you think they maybe illegal then don't use them.
If you're gonna say they're illegal then please post the state laws you are referring to.
Here's a link to state by state modification laws: http://public.findlaw.com/traffic-ticket-violation-law/traffic-ticket-a-z/unlawful-modification-laws.html

Rich96c4ce · Apr 4, 2008

SparrowHawk60 said: ↑

On the topic of Fog Lights. Seems there are a few among the posters here that want to jump on a band wagon and respond to any question on the topic with "Their illegal"!
No they are not! I have yet to see anything where the installation of fog lights are illegal. Yes, they may have to meet certain high and mounting restrictions but they can still be installed. Their use maybe prohibited or restricted in some locals and here is where the problems start to come about.
In fact in Virginia, quote from VA V+T law:
Â§ 46.2-1020. Other permissible lights. Any motor vehicle may be equipped with fog lights, not more than two of which can be illuminated at any time, one or two auxiliary driving lights if so equipped by the manufacturer, two daytime running lights, two side lights of not more than six candlepower, an interior light or lights of not more than 15 candlepower each, and signal lights.
Washington State, quote from V+T law:
(2) Fog lamps. Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed two fog lamps mounted on the front at a height of not less than twelve inches nor more than thirty inches above the level surface upon which the vehicle stands and so aimed that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle shall at a distance of twenty-five feet ahead project higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes. Lighted fog lamps meeting the above requirements may be used with lower head lamp beams as specified in RCW 46.37.220.

Would a manufacture put thousands of fog lights on cars, knowing there installation was illegal? Would a dealer sell a new car, knowing that in his/her state they are illegal? I highly doubt it, think of the law suits this would one up. (And Fog lights have been a dealer item for years!)
First off the Federal Law, dictates what lights maybe used on vehicles, other wise know as the DOT. Best bet is if there is no DOT number on the light itself or you can't find where this light is approved by the DOT, it's not a good idea to mount it to your car.

Federal law dictates what lamps MUST be used on vehicles, and if other lamps than those required are installed, dictates how they must be installed or wired, IF there is a safety issue with the used of such lamps. The use of the symbol DOT on lamps is optional for all federally required lamps except headlamps, where the use of the symbol DOT is required. Fog lamps are not specifically allowed nor prohibited under federal law, however, if fog lamps are installed, there is a specific dimensional/intensity relationship that fog lamps and direction indicator lamps must have. Because fog lamps are not specifically regulated by federal law, they may be regulated by state law. Most states regulate them in various ways. For example, Maryland may fog lamps to be approved by the motor vehicle administrator before they can be sold or installed. See: Maryland MGA Statutes Text Page 1

"Â§22â€“103.
(a) In order to assure that required devices displayed for sale, sold, offered for sale, or delivered for use in, on, or as a part of the equipment of a motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, or pole trailer are of a type approved by the Administrator, the Administration may maintain a program of market surveillance.
(b) On discovery of unapproved devices being sold, offered for sale, displayed for sale, or being delivered for use on any of the vehicles described in Â§ 22-101(c) of this subtitle, notice shall be given that the seller, jobber, or wholesaler is in violation of Â§ 22-101 and that these unapproved devices may not be sold, displayed for sale, or delivered for use on any of the vehicles described in Â§ 22-101(c) and that any such sale, offer for sale, display for sale, or delivery for use of any unapproved devices is a violation of this title."

"You can't use them with out your headlights being on!"
Say's who, what state, what law? Quote it please if you can find it. California: V.C. Section 24403 - Foglamps
"Foglamps

24403. (a) A motor vehicle may be equipped with not more than two foglamps that may be used with, but may not be used in substitution of, headlamps."

Virginia says may be used with headlamps, but the California code says must not be used instead of headlamps. This may mean that they can be used only with headlamps, or this may mean that they may be used without headlamps only when the code doesn't require headlamps to be used.

Maryland: MGA Statutes Text Page 1

"Â§22â€“201.2.
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of this subtitle, if a driver of a vehicle on a highway operates the vehicleâ€™s windshield wipers for a continuous period of time because of impaired visibility resulting from unfavorable atmospheric conditions, the driver shall light the vehicleâ€™s headlamps or fog lights."
MGA Statutes Text Page 1
"Â§22â€“217.
(a) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed one spot lamp. Every lighted spot lamp shall be aimed and used, on approaching another vehicle, so that no part of the high-intensity portion of the beam will be directed to the left of the prolongation of the extreme left side of the vehicle or more than 100 feet ahead of the vehicle.
(b) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed two fog lamps mounted on the front at a height of not more than 30 inches nor less than 12 inches above the level surface on which the vehicle stands, and so aimed that, when the vehicle is not loaded, none of the high-intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle shall, at a distance of 25 feet ahead, project higher than a level of 4 inches below the level of the center of the lamp from which it comes. Lighted fog lamps meeting these requirements may be used with lower headlamp beams as specified in Â§ 22-222(a)(2) of this subtitle."
But, the Maryland code also says in essence in the following two sections, that fog lamps can not be used exclusively at night.
Maryland MGA Statutes Text Page 1
"Â§22â€“223.
(a) Whenever a motor vehicle is being driven on a roadway or adjacent shoulder during the times specified in Â§ 22-201.1 of this subtitle, the driver shall use a distribution of light, or composite beam, directed high enough and of sufficient intensity to reveal persons and vehicles at a safe distance in advance of the vehicle, subject to the requirements and limitations of this section."
MGA Statutes Text Page 1
"Â§22â€“201.1.
Every vehicle on a highway in this State, at any time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 1,000 feet ahead, shall display lighted lamps and illuminating devices as respectively required in this subtitle for different classes of vehicles, subject to exceptions with respect to parked vehicles, and further that stoplights, turn signals, and other signaling devices shall be lighted as prescribed for the use of these devices."

These suggest or state that Maryland allows the foglamps to be on when the headlamps are not on.

It is easy to see why the public is confused about fog lamps and their use.

This is a common sense issue, if the driving conditions are bad enough to need fog lights, chances are you need your headlights as well. Don't forget that having your headlights on means all the other lights on your car will be on as well.
Can't tell you the number of people that drive around in bad weather or dawn or dusk with just their Daytime Running Lights on! Duh! What about the back end of the car?
Yes, you can only use your fog lights on the low beam setting. Again common sense if you need your high beams the fog lights aren't going to help. (Don't confuse fog lights with driving lights, two different things!)
Still haven't found a Law that specifies this. May come anti-dazzle clauses. "New York now has a law that requires dimming auxiliary lights along with high beams in the presence of other traffic. Other states may soon have similar laws. Anti-Glare law, goes into effect 01 Aug 08."
I haven't seen it in print yet.
Well, if you think they maybe illegal then don't use them.
If you're gonna say they're illegal then please post the state laws you are referring to.
Here's a link to state by state modification laws: http://public.findlaw.com/traffic-ticket-violation-law/traffic-ticket-a-z/unlawful-modification-laws.html
Click to expand...

P.S. Here is a link to a motor vehicle code, that is surely to make Prius owners interested in "pulsing", comment. This happens to be from Utah, but other states have similar laws.

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE41/htm/41_04221.htm 41-6a-1709. Coasting prohibited.
(1) The operator of a motor vehicle, when traveling on a downgrade, may not coast with the gears or transmission of the vehicle in neutral.
(2) The operator of a truck or bus, when traveling on a downgrade, may not coast with the clutch disengaged.

subarutoo · Apr 4, 2008

Very colorful post. Is posting in colors kinda like posting in ALL CAPS, like you are shouting at someone? Just wondering ...

SparrowHawk60 · Apr 4, 2008

Yup, I'm sure the laws get more and more confusing as you look up each state's.
I know Virginia had some pretty tough regulations covering motor vehicles. Bumper height, lights etc. that's why I used VA as an example.
I was not one bit surprised to learn that California has fog light laws on the books. This is one of the toughest states when it comes to Motor Vehicles, especially when it comes to modifications!

"...Fog lamps are not specifically allowed nor prohibited under federal law, however, if fog lamps are installed, there is a specific dimensional/intensity relationship that fog lamps and direction indicator lamps must have. Because fog lamps are not specifically regulated by federal law, they may be regulated by state law. Most states regulate them in various ways..."

Yup, one reason why manufactures can put them on Vehicles and mount them where ever they want. Look at the light bar on some Jeep Liberty's! I've seen a knucklehead rideing on a public road with all of these lights blaring away!

There are some more strange laws that few know about, here's a few I found out.
In Rhode Island, you don't need insurance to drive you car. However you do in other states, so it is an offence to drive out of state with no insurance. You can't have any rust on the vehicle that constitutes a hole, this is to prevent exhaust gas from entering the car or so they claim. But you can for example put duct tape over the hole and pass inspection!
A blinking GREEN light means you have to yield to pedestrians.
Some states don't require front licence plates, for example Florida. But if you drive without a front plate in NY, you are subject to a possible ticket.
You cannot have any type of novelty plate attached to your NYS plate. (It has to be mounted separately.) You can't have any type of frame around your plate, yeah the ones from the dealer is no good! Display of any kind of plate either current or past issue is no good. They can ticket you for dual registration, failure to dispose of plates properly.
Watch out in Alabama: Section 32-5-11 Throwing or shooting deadly or dangerous missile into occupied vehicle. Whoever willfully throws or shoots a rock, stone, brick or piece of iron, steel or other like metal, or any deadly or dangerous missile or fire bomb, into a motor vehicle that is occupied by one or more persons is guilty of a felony and upon conviction shall be imprisoned for not less than one year and a day and shall be fined not less than $500.00.

SparrowHawk60 · Apr 4, 2008

subarutoo said: ↑

Very colorful post. Is posting in colors kinda like posting in ALL CAPS, like you are shouting at someone? Just wondering ...
Click to expand...

NAAAA, I think Rich was using diffrent colors to quote me and then respond to the quote.. Of course I could be mistaken, but I didn't take it as shouting.
Rich, please tell us you weren't shouting.

qbee42 · Apr 4, 2008

I believe Rich was the author of the federal code relating to headlamp use, so he has some idea about the topic.

Tom

davidtm · Apr 5, 2008

Naw, he wasn't shouting, just using colorful language!

N3FOL · Apr 5, 2008

You can have as much lights as you want.

Rich96c4ce · Apr 6, 2008

subarutoo said: ↑

Very colorful post. Is posting in colors kinda like posting in ALL CAPS, like you are shouting at someone? Just wondering ...
Click to expand...

How would you distinguish between the quoted text and the my inserted text?
If I wanted to shout, I would have used colored, allcaps text.

Rich96c4ce · Apr 6, 2008

SparrowHawk60 said: ↑

Yup, I'm sure the laws get more and more confusing as you look up each state's..........they may be regulated by state law. Most states regulate them in various ways..."

Yup, one reason why manufactures can put them on Vehicles and mount them where ever they want. Look at the light bar on some Jeep Liberty's! I've seen a knucklehead rideing on a public road with all of these lights blaring away! According to Chrysler's Safety Office, those are not fog or driving lamps, they are off-road lamps and that is why the vehicles are delivered with opaque plastic covers on the lamps. NHTSA wrote and learned that. NHTSA suggested that the lamps be capable of operating only when at low speeds or when in low range 4WD, but Chrysler wasn't interested. The Subaru Baja had roof-mounted "party lights" that would only operate in Neutral or Park. The use of those Liberty lights is illegal on the highway in most states. Too bad there are so many other things that police officers need to do instead of enforcing that.

There are some more strange laws that few know about, here's a few I found out.
In Rhode Island, you don't need insurance to drive you car. However you do in other states, so it is an offence to drive out of state with no insurance. You can't have any rust on the vehicle that constitutes a hole, this is to prevent exhaust gas from entering the car or so they claim. But you can for example put duct tape over the hole and pass inspection!
A blinking GREEN light means you have to yield to pedestrians.
Some states don't require front licence plates, for example Florida. But if you drive without a front plate in NY, you are subject to a possible ticket.
You cannot have any type of novelty plate attached to your NYS plate. (It has to be mounted separately.) You can't have any type of frame around your plate, yeah the ones from the dealer is no good! Display of any kind of plate either current or past issue is no good. They can ticket you for dual registration, failure to dispose of plates properly.
Watch out in Alabama: Section 32-5-11 Throwing or shooting deadly or dangerous missile into occupied vehicle. Whoever willfully throws or shoots a rock, stone, brick or piece of iron, steel or other like metal, or any deadly or dangerous missile or fire bomb, into a motor vehicle that is occupied by one or more persons is guilty of a felony and upon conviction shall be imprisoned for not less than one year and a day and shall be fined not less than $500.00.
Click to expand...

And don't forget shooting other things at drivers, like The Bird. I believe that is illegal in Maryland and some other states. I know the fine in Germany for that is really severe, although I don't think that it is amputation.

Rich96c4ce · Apr 6, 2008

N3FOL said: ↑

You can have as much lights as you want.

<IMG style="MAX-WIDTH: 800px; ; WIDTH: expression(this.width > 800 ? 800: true)" alt="" src="http://www.chaney.i12.com/dannys_tv1.jpg" border=0>
Click to expand...

This photo really gets around. I had seen it in emails sent to me at work many years ago. What a hoot! I wonder if is slows down when you turn them all on, because of the power being diverted from the drivetrain?

Can imagine how impossible it might be to drive or pick up if the kickstand ever failed?

NoMoShocks · Apr 6, 2008

qbee42 said: ↑

I believe Rich was the author of the federal code relating to headlamp use, so he has some idea about the topic.

Tom
Click to expand...

I believe Rich said he was involved as a contributor to authoring the headlight code, not "the author". Rich can clarify this as he sees fit.

DGH · Apr 6, 2008

In Wisconsin, fog lights are allowed to be turned on only
during "inclement" weather.

Do people follow the law? Sadly......NO.

My experience is that the rules of the road are disappearing, anarchy is the new rule. Again....sadly.

Dan.
And yes, I do detest the cretins with the always on fog lights.

HolyPotato · Apr 7, 2008

Rich96c4ce said: ↑

How would you distinguish between the quoted text and the my inserted text?
Click to expand...

You can instead insert the text between separate quote boxes by using the quote tags... [ quote ] [ /quote ] {remove the spaces between the square brackets to make the tags actually function}

If I wanted to shout, I would have used colored, allcaps text.
Click to expand...

I like separate quote boxes because then there isn't the ambiguity of whether the coloured text is being highlighted in the quote for emphasis, or is the response.

Unfortunately, I don't have anything useful to add to this discussion on fog lamps . Carry on.

hope this helps

patsparks · Apr 7, 2008

In South Australia only rear fog lights are not to be iluminated except in poor visibility caused by rain or fog. Front fog lights may be used any time but must not dazzle other road users.
Always use cheap and unimpressive front fog lights in South Australia. Wouldn't want to dazzle anyone!

NoMoShocks · Apr 8, 2008

DGH said: ↑

In Wisconsin, fog lights are allowed to be turned on only
during "inclement" weather.

Do people follow the law? Sadly......NO.

My experience is that the rules of the road are disappearing, anarchy is the new rule. Again....sadly.

Dan.
And yes, I do detest the cretins with the always on fog lights.
Click to expand...

I was a "cretin" I guess, but for me, it was a matter of understanding the rationalle. As soon as I read that the extra light up close actually diminishes you vision down the road, due to eyes adjusting to the brighter light up close, I stopped leaving the Fog Lights on "for good measure".

I think I will fit my Prius with the light array from the motorcycle, but have some sensors that turn different lights on and off based on a variety of factors such as the colors of cars around mine, angle of the sun, so on.

qbee42 · Apr 9, 2008

NoMoShocks said: ↑

I believe Rich said he was involved as a contributor to authoring the headlight code, not "the author". Rich can clarify this as he sees fit.
Click to expand...

Here is what Rich actually said:

I wrote the federal rule on DRLs.
Click to expand...

which can be found in this thread: http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-modifications/44884-change-direction-my-lighting-mods.html

His comment was about daytime running lights, not headlights in general.

I assume almost all laws and codes are beaten into shape by a number of authors and contributors. It's hard to imagine any of them having a single author by the time they get through the bureaucratic maze and legislative process.

Tom

DGH · Apr 9, 2008

NoMoShocks said: ↑

I was a "cretin" I guess, but for me, it was a matter of understanding the rationalle.
Click to expand...

Daytime on OK, on all the time, EVERY night--- BAD.

N3FOL · Apr 9, 2008

Rich96c4ce said: ↑

This photo really gets around. I had seen it in emails sent to me at work many years ago. What a hoot! I wonder if is slows down when you turn them all on, because of the power being diverted from the drivetrain?

Can imagine how impossible it might be to drive or pick up if the kickstand ever failed?
Click to expand...

I got the pic from our motorcycle forum. The pic may have been photoshopped...

The kickstand may survive for it is a very strong piece of metal, but I don't think the rider will go very far until a rock comes his way.

David Beale · Apr 9, 2008

1. Not very good to post about law if you are not prepared to give a legal opinion, and are qualified!
2. Just because fog lamps may be ok in your area doesn't mean they are ok everywhere. This forum is used across the world! Post carefully!
3. I have never seen anyone say fog lamps are illegal in any post I have read, and I have never posted fog lamps are illegal in any posts I've put up. I have stated they may be illegal to have on without the headlamps on -in some jurisdictions-.

In Alberta the following applies:
Auxiliary driving or fog lamps
50(1) In this section,
(a) â€œauxiliary driving lampâ€ means a SAE J581 type Y lamp;
(b) â€œfog lampâ€ means a SAE J583 type F lamp.
(2) A motor vehicle may have fixed or movable auxiliary driving lamps or fog lamps mounted on the front if their centres are lower than the centres of the headlamps.
(3) Not more than 2 auxiliary driving lamps or 2 fog lamps may be mounted on each side of the vertical centre line.
(4) Auxiliary driving lamps on a motor vehicle must be used only at the same time the high beams on the headlamps are used.
(5) Fog lamps on a motor vehicle must be used only at the same time the low beams on the headlamps are used.
(6) Despite subsection (5), fog lamps may be used without headlamps if the weather and road conditions make the use of headlamps disadvantageous.
(7) A person shall not drive or operate or own a motor vehicle that has a total of more than 4 auxiliary driving lamps and fog lamps.
(8) A person shall not drive a motor vehicle that has a total of more than 2 auxiliary driving lamps and fog lamps lit at the same time.
(9) An auxiliary driving lamp or fog lamp on an unloaded motor vehicle must be adjusted and aimed so that none of the high‑intensity portion of the light to the left of centre of the vehicle projects, at a distance of 8 metres ahead, higher than 100 millimetres below the centre of the lamp from which the light is projected.
(10) Fog lamps on a motor vehicle may emit amber or white light.

Take note of #5 and #6. It appears the application of either is at the discretion of the officer who stops you.

About the Fog Light issue:

SparrowHawk60 Happy to be green!

Rich96c4ce New Member

subarutoo New Member

SparrowHawk60 Happy to be green!

SparrowHawk60 Happy to be green!

qbee42 My other car is a boat

davidtm Member

N3FOL Member

Rich96c4ce New Member

Rich96c4ce New Member

Rich96c4ce New Member

NoMoShocks Electrical Engineer

DGH Thread Terminator

HolyPotato Junior Member

patsparks An Aussie perspective

NoMoShocks Electrical Engineer

qbee42 My other car is a boat

DGH Thread Terminator

N3FOL Member

David Beale Senior Member

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About the Fog Light issue:

SparrowHawk60 Happy to be green!

Rich96c4ce New Member

subarutoo New Member

SparrowHawk60 Happy to be green!

SparrowHawk60 Happy to be green!

qbee42 My other car is a boat

davidtm Member

N3FOL Member

Rich96c4ce New Member

Rich96c4ce New Member

Rich96c4ce New Member

NoMoShocks Electrical Engineer

DGH Thread Terminator

HolyPotato Junior Member

patsparks An Aussie perspective

NoMoShocks Electrical Engineer

qbee42 My other car is a boat

DGH Thread Terminator

N3FOL Member

David Beale Senior Member