Honda Civic GX

Hi Steamboat..,

There are positives and negatives with anything. Here is what I think the negatives are.

The PHIL system is said to require a costly refurbishment after several years.

Natural Gas exceeds 78 % efficiency in a heating system, but in a car, it will be around 20 % (mostly highway driving). Using Natural Gas for vehicle usage is wasteful of the resource.


How long before the cost of natural gas goes up if allot of people use these systems because of the huge increase in gas usage? Not long.

 

Compressed natural gas is not measured in gallons. Even in its compressed state it is still a gas. Normally it is measured in cubic feet at standard temperature and pressure. I suppose that's really not any better than gallons at standard temperature and pressure, but that is the custom.

To refill at home, you need a fairly expensive high pressure compressor.

Tom

 

Apparently, the home compressor station is popular in Europe

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It's actually a Toronot, Ontario company. Stakeholders are Honda (Thus the Honda blurb) and Magna, a very large Canadian auto parts maker.

Details are rather sketchy. The faq states it takes 4 hours to refill 80 km of driving. I would like to know how much the Phil thing costs, how much the mandatory 6,000 hour reman costs, etc

At one time, natural gas and propane conversions were quite popular. As long as the motorist used an oil intended for natural gas use - nitration buildup is a result - the motor stayed very clean and lasted a very long time

Cold start was a problem with propane cars, especially temps below -18 C. The vaporiser had full time coolant piped through it, to assist in the propane properly vaporising.

It didn't take long for motorists to figure out how to rig up heating pads on the vaporiser housing, so cold starts were quick and easy

 

Note: the cold start issue of propane cars wasn't due to the propane actually freezing, that happens at cryo temps. When you compress a gas that is warm, and then allow it to vaporise at very cold temps, some residual moisture can freeze

Ever had a regulator freeze on a propane bbq at -30 and colder? Not much fun, especially when the steaks aren't quite done

 

Does the price include a recharge station or is that extra?
I would imagine the "gallons" you speak of are "gallon of petrol equivalent energy" units. It is less polluting than petrol but has some shortcomings like range and refilling when away from home. I assume USA uses domestic natural gas? That's cool.

A new gas turbine power station using the latest energy recovery is about 53% efficient Gas-Fired Power Station (CCGT) - International Power Australia . Electric vehicle motors about 80 to 90% efficient depending on speed and load and the battery charging and discharging about 80% efficient so an electric car powered by a gas fired power station is about 34% efficient.

20% isn't all that far off the efficiency of electric but is cheaper and has a better range than the oversize kiddy cars passed off as neighbourhood EVs and it is a real 4 door car.

Sounds like a good idea to me if it fits your needs.

 

As I understand it, you can still get a single-occupancy HOV lane sticker for the Civic GX in California. Although the hybrid stickers have maxed out, the zero emissions stickers are still available. The GX is classified as a pure zero emissions vehicle (uses a white sticker rather than a yellow sticker).

That would be a big plus in California.

 

I like it, but as others have stated, I would like more info on the cost of ownership of the Phill system. It'd be a good car for my parents, but I have a need for good range, and availability of fuel since I cruise around, alot.

 

It's well worth your while to go to Fuel Economy, do a side-by-side comparison of the CNG Civic and the Prius, and study the numbers.

As far as I can tell, the only cost advantage of the CNG Civic is the current cheap price of natural gas. And even so the advantage is small. Fueleconomy.gov shows the cost to drive 25 miles in a Prius as $1.77, for the CNG Honda it's $1.47.

But that assumes CNG at $1.65 per gas-gallon equivalent, which works out to be 1.43/therm (100,000 BTU). But I actually pay $1.62/therm currently, net, based on my most recent gas bill. So, for me, the cost of the fuel for 25 miles would be $1.67, or a dime less than the Prius at current natural gas prices. If you live in an area with even slightly higher natural gas prices, you'll actually pay more for the fuel for a CNG Civic than for a Prius.

Another way to look at that is that, saving $0.10 per 25 miles, I'd have to drive 500,000 miles to break even on the $2000 cost of the phil device. At current prices.

But actual retail natural gas prices tend to lag due to the presence of long-term contracts. In effect, the comparison above looks at current gasoline prices compared to a natural gas price that that hasn't yet fully caught up to the most recent round of commodity price increases. If I had to bet, I'd bet that the cost advantage of the CNG Civic would be smaller next year than it is this year.

The CNG Civic has low tailpipe emissions and doesn't use oil for the fuel, so those are advantages. But the cost-of-fuel advantage appears negligible relative to a Prius. The 6 cubic feet of trunk space is also noteworthy.

 

Here in Korea there are lots of cars running on CNG, almost the whole taxi, rental and bus fleet, plus a few private owners who get exceptions, mostly elderly people. There are CNG gas stations pretty much everywhere, although not as much as pure gasoline stations. CNG is a whole lot cheaper, but from what I understand the cars are underpowered while operating with CNG and all of them retain the gas tank for uphills and heavy hauling. A valve actuated by a solenoid is installed to switch from CNG to gasoline. Some expensive systems switch automatically when the engine is under load. I once rented a Hyundai Sonata with auto switch CNG and never felt any difference. The gasoline gauge never went down so I assume I didn't use gas... I refilled with CNG once and at the gas station it took maybe 5 minutes to refill, just like gasoline. Here gasoline is maybe $6 per gallon (1500 Won per liter, 940 Won per dollar) but CNG is a whole lot cheaper. I remember toping off the Sonata for 25,000 Won, roughly $26 dollars. Topping off with gasoline would have been a whole lot more expensive.

 

A lot of the decision for conversion should be based on the cost of natural gas in your market. The gas meters up here actually read in cu ft, so it's pretty easy to convert back to decatherms.

If I did the conversion properly, the cost of natural gas up here is around $12 per decatherm

That is the sum of distribution, retail, pipeline, etc charges. How does that compare to other areas??

 

I have a Honda Civic GX, so I've learned quite a bit about it. The phill unit really only makes sense if you are not near a filling station. I live about 5 miles from one, and work about 2 miles from one, so I never worry about getting to a station unless I take a road trip. When you buy the car, they give you a booklet that shows where all of the stations are, so you need to be a bit aware of where you are and how much fuel you have, other than that, it has never been a problem.

The CNG (compressed Natural Gas) is sold in GGE (Gasoline gallon equivalent). It takes about 5 minutes to fill at the station and in May 2008 it costs about $2.80 a GGE. I get about 36 to 38 miles per gallon. The tank holds 8 gallons, so the range is somewhat smaller than a gasoline car, but the $1.30 off the price of gasoline helps to make up for that.

The trunk has been pretty much removed to make room for the tank. The trunk is about 1 food long, 2.5 feet deep, and 5 feet wide. Every 30,000 miles you are supposed to replace a fuel filter that is special for the GX. It costs about $200 to do that, but several owners have said that if you have a good quality gas at your pump, you can go as long as 100,000 without replacing the filter. Because it does not use a carbon rich fuel, there are no carbon deposits so an engine can last as long as 500,000 miles without failure due to wear.

The Phill is not the only home filling station you can buy. it is the only one that will fit inside a garage right now. You can get other home filling stations made by Fuelmaker. They also cost about $4000, but you can attach 2 hoses for filling and the net price is about $1.75 to $2 a gge after fuel rate reduction. The reduction also applies to your entire home use, so if you have a gas heated pool, the savings can add up quickly.

Other benefits besides the $4000 tax credit you get from the Federal government, the $3000 rebate from the state of California, and the ability to use the car pool lane (which you do not get with a new prius). You can park in many cities at metered spaces without paying. You can use many toll roads and bridges without paying. The coolness factor is much higher than with a Prius (the second best "coolness" car out there).

Overall, It is a great option in what should be a multi-option approach to reducing dependence on Oil. The Prius uses gasoline as its sole power source. I love my car. I've never had trouble finding fuel (but I am a member of AAA advanced just in case). Let me know if you have more questions about the GX. (dejapooh(AT)verizon.net)

 

Last I heard, the $3k CA rebate is all spent.

 

No, They've just gotten in some more money for that, but they don't have any cars. Most dealers are sold out. They will not have more until September and then they will be on a first come first served basis. Guess you will have to make due with a Prius... No matter how polluting it is

 

One other issue with Natural Gas is that it all comes from the US or Canada. I am not sure about the status of our total reserves, they are developing some newly discovered fields in Colorado and Wyoming.

There was talk about starting to import Nat. Gas in the form of LNG (liquid natural gas) but the NIMBY's put a stop to that.

Like any option, there are definately pro's and cons with a natural gas fueled car. There is not right or wrong answer in regards to Prius vs Honda GX.

 

Another issue is the amount of Methane that is wasted currently. Most land fills, animal farms, and so on produce methane that is either burned off or is released into the atmosphere. Unburned, it is a greenhouse gas far beyond CO2. Burned, it is relatively clean and converts to water, CO2, and a few other chemicals depending upon the impurities.

If we could just capture the methane potential of Taco bell, we could all drive CNG Hummers forever!

 

Surprisingly, this thread has focused only on the cost of a GX vs. a Prius.

How about the environmental impact? What is the GX's footprint compared to the Prius? I don't know a lick about natural gas, so I have no clue.

 

A lot of landfills are being converted in CA. And PG&E buying all the cow crap in the central valley already.

 

How about humans pooping? Sewage treatment is also a huge source of methane, and with co-generation at a sewage plant, would not only produce electricity in excess of what is needed for the process, but the heat from co-gen would help cook the stuff in the digesters

Hog barns are another source of valuable energy. All that pig s*** is now being kept in giant ponds, stinking up the landscape. Hog barns also consume a great deal of electricity.

A similar co-gen approach could be used at hog barns to digest the pig s***, which would tend to de-stink it, and also produce a lot of electricity