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Immobilization system light flashes while driving

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Kinare, Mar 24, 2008.

  1. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    First time reader and poster...

    I'm thinking of buying a 2004 used Prius. I had it inspected by an independent mechanic and they said everything is fine except the vanity lights don't work (from the flip down visors) and the security system warning light was flashing (was a very detailed 150-point check. They are familiar with hybrids).

    When I drove the car, loved it. Every second. (I've always wanted one to be honest, and it was only sour grapes that made me think Prius owners are just hippies and pretentious types :p)

    But as I was driving it, I did notice a flashing light. It's a red light shaped like a car with a key inside of it. From reading a previous post, I think that's the immobilization system indicator light.

    I am trying to figure out if this is a major deal. The light was blinking while the car was in motion. It seemed to blink constantly. The guy who was trying to sell it to me said that was the security system working (though I don't think he knew for sure, it was an independent seller who sells cars in his spare time).

    I did some research on the internet, and what little I could find suggests that the key thingy (FOB?) was not configured properly and that's why the light was blinking.

    Any heads up would be good. I am slated to possibly buy the car tomorrow. Any other warnings would be good at this point. I really really don't want buyers remorse on this.

    Thank you.
     
  2. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Was that a certified Prius mechanic? Those are symptoms of possibly serious wiring and/or computer problems which would be expensive to fix. This car needs a complete diagnosis before anyone buys it, to find out exactly what is wrong.
     
  3. diamondlarry

    diamondlarry EPA MPG #'s killer

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    I'm not familiar with older Prius but, could it be it has SKS and the batteries in the fob are dead?
     
  4. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

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    if the key light is lit.. it's the smart start looking for the key. maybe they started the key and left the fob at the dealership?

    if the key is in the car, it should not do that. there should be 0 lights flashing while driving.. unless someone didn't buckle up.
     
  5. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    It was not a Toyota certified mechanic. He was looking for stuff that was wrong in general, like oil leaks and inoperable windows and malfunctioning lights and such.

    The key was in the ignition (can it even be called that?). I put it there. The light was still blinking while driving.

    I will ask about the SKS and battery thing. If that's the issue then great, I'm ready to buy. If not, I'll see if they can postpone sale for a day. If not I can walk away and no harm done.

    Newb question... Why would the SKS cause the light to blink? Is anyone willing to test that on their Prius and see if the light blinks when you remove the battery (or know from experience with absolute certainty)?

    Thanks, great help so far.
     
  6. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    With the SKS, the key fob does not need to be inserted into the slot, but if it is inserted, no battery is needed. That pretty much eliminates the dead key fob battery theory. The car should not power up without the key fob, but once started the immobilizer light should stop flashing. You need to have this checked.

    Tom
     
  7. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    How many fobs does the car come with? If more than one try the other one to see if the red icon continues to flash. It should not flash when the car is in operation.

    A Smart Key fob has the Toyota emblem embossed in silver while a non-Smart Key fob has the emblem in black only.

    When the car is IG-ON do all warning lights turn on including the red triangle master warning light and the check engine light? Does the MFD work? (this is another source of warnings)

    The red flashing light might mean that the fob was incorrectly programmed or this might mean that the immobilization system was somehow bypassed. Are you buying the car from a reputable source? Was the car in an accident?

    If you don't have confidence in the seller I suggest extra care, verifying that the VIN on the title matches the VIN on all body panels, on the plate below the windshield, engraved on the body in the engine compartment etc.

    I think that a mechanic who is not Prius-trained will have trouble providing an adequate assessment of the vehicle's electronics, lacking the proper code reader to retrieve stored diagnostic trouble codes. A generic OBD-II reader is not adequate.
     
  8. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    I'll have to ask, I'm not sure how many fobs or which kind (silver or black icon).

    I didn't see any other lights on when driving. I am not sure what the MFD is.

    Carfax says no accidents. I am not sure if it's a reputable source. It's a couple who sells cars in their spare time. They seem nice but I don't want to base my decision on feelings. The car looks immaculate to be frank, except some wear on a black edge next to the driver's side window.

    You are likely correct, and I really think I'm going to ask for them to take it to a dealer to have it checked out. When I initially talked with them, I wanted them to take it to a dealer so I could pay for an inspection. They balked big time, and said that it was a bad idea, because the dealer has a vested interest in me rejecting their vehicle. To me it made sense at the time, but it makes me wonder if they are trying to unload a lemon on me now.

    So I'll ask to get it checked out, and if they say no I'll walk away from the sale. Thanks guys! You're so great. I really hope to get a Prius, but really not unless it's going to be a great car. I can still post here if I don't have one right =p
     
  9. sparkyAZ

    sparkyAZ übergeek

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    MFD= Multi-Function Display = the touch-screen LCD monitor in the middle of the dash

    Tell them to take it to the dealer and that you want the same inspection as a Toyota Certified used vehicle would receive. If they tell the dealer they want a pre-sale inspection at the request of the buyer, the dealer does not have any vested interest except perhaps in finding problems that they can charge to repair. You can discuss the inspection report with your mechanic to determine what needs to be fixed and what does not. The seller has a vested interest in having you not find out about any serious problems, so I wouldn't go through with the deal without one.
     
  10. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    Yes, thanks for the definition. It works fine. I checked it out.

    I talked to them and they are OK with taking it back to either the original mechanic (which I had selected) or a dealership to find out what's wrong with it. The guy did mention that when he picked up his car from the mechanic, the mechanic said that he could probably fix it within an hour. The woman of the couple (I talked to both on the phone) said that when cars are shipped they have to be disconnected from the battery and somehow the problem arises from that. I'm kinda hazy on that.

    The guy sounded kind of miffed on the phone that I'd want to wait an extra day, but still willing to do what I want to make me feel ok with the purchase.

    A coworker has a son who is a Toyota certified mechanic (at a shop far, far away) and he said it would cost about $150 an hour to diagnose. The other shop, however, said they could do it for I think $85?

    I'm inclined to think the problem is going to be minor so maybe have the guy take it to the local mechanic's shop (it's a clean looking shop, not a backyard mechanic). Plus the Toyota shop has a long wait time to get it in there.

    I assume if it's a major issue the local mechanic won't be able to fix it and I'd get my answer that way.

    Thoughts?

    EDIT to add... the light is the only thing that appears to be wrong with it.
     
  11. Bill Merchant

    Bill Merchant absit invidia

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    Hi Kinare, welcome to PriusChat! The reason so many here have suggested going to a Toyota dealer is that the Prius is not just another car. I has quirks and requirements that only someone with a multi-thousand dollar Toyota scan tool can test and satisfy. No slam on any mechanic, but unless they can read the state of the main ECU computers (dozens, which requires the Toyota tool) you can't be sure what you're buying.

    BTW, the vanity lights require the visor to be down and the mirror exposed and the switch on the light turned on. Close the mirror, light goes off. Flip up the visor, light goes off. Flip the switch, light goes off.

    Good luck! I can tell you really want this car!
     
  12. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    Called the owner, and he said they'd have it looked at and fix the problem. He'll give me a call tonight.

    Thanks for all of your help.
     
  13. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    This car really needs to go to a Toyota certified Prius technician with specialized tools and knowledge for diagnosis. Waiting a day and spending $100 now could save the buyer thousands later (I do not exaggerate; Prius computers and wiring are not cheap).
     
  14. firepa63

    firepa63 Former Prius Owner

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    Take it to a Toyota dealer to have it diagnosed. It could be a faulty ECU which could be expensive.
     
  15. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I hope that his idea of "fix" does not include disabling the LED icon...:D

    This is why I asked if all warning lights turn on when you make the vehicle IG-ON. To do this, push the POWER button twice without pressing the brake pedal, starting from when the vehicle is turned off. The first time you press the button, the car will be in ACC-ON where you can turn on the stereo.

    The second time you press the button, the car will be IG-ON, and you should see all warning lights appear. Look particularly for the red triangle master warning light, the amber check engine light, the red air bag warning light, and the brake warning lights: VSC, BRAKE, and the skidding vehicle. If any of those lights do not turn on, there is a problem.

    In a used car transaction, the seller always knows much more about the condition of the vehicle than the buyer. If the seller is reluctant to let the buyer perform an inspection to gain information, it is reasonable to conclude that a hidden problem exists.
     
  16. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    So they don't want you to take it to a Toyota dealer? I'd run away.

    As others have mentioned, the Prius is a very complex vehicle. The vast majority of the time, everything is very reliable and you have no issues. If the car history is murky, that's a warning sign

    Question: are these folks selling the car "curbsiders?" That is, do they buy cars at auction, perhaps Lemon Law vehicles or writeoffs, and sell them pretending to be private sellers?

    The law varies by jurisdiction, I know in Utah the state requires fingerprinting of all registered new and used car dealers. In Utah, curbsiding is a serious offense

    If the car was ever registered in the Canadian province of Manitoba, do NOT buy it! There is a socialist/communist car insurnace system run by the province, called Manitoba Public Insurnace, or "Autopac." It's a Crown Corporation, fully expempt from auditing

    Autopac does NOT share vehicle history data with anybody else. Curbsiding is a thriving business here, and Autopac even brags how easy it is to buy a written off car at auction. A Carfax or similar report cannot determine if a car was written off in Manitoba, fixed up, and resold as "ok."

    So caveat emptor (buyer beware). I'd try to make an apointment at the Toyota dealer, wrangle another test drive from this couple, and send the car straight to the dealer. Ask in particular to look for evidence of crash damage and quick repair
     
  17. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    They told me they buy cars at dealer auctions and resell them. They sell about 4-8 cars a month and as far as I know, they only do hybrids. I've checked out all of the cars they posted on craigslist (on carfax). None are from Manitoba, and they are all accident-free from what I can tell. This particular car still has a manufacturer's power train warranty on it for another 25,000 miles.

    So they're not exactly private sellers as I've said before. They didn't try to hide that they deal in cars as a side business.

    Hah, now that you mention it, I'm wondering what the fix is going to be.

    I'm supposed to go tonight to check out the car again and give it a yay or nay. I'll definitely check out the IG-ON thingy posted above. How do you get out of IG-ON mode? I want to make sure not to screw anything up. In IG-ON mode, is the immobilization system light supposed to go on as well?
     
  18. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    Step on the brake and push the power button again to switch to Ready mode. Simply press the power button again to cycle off.

    As for looking at the car tonight, you seem to be missing what most of us have suggested, or perhaps you are simply resisting the suggestions. Either way, I'm going to beat you over the head and state this point blank: I wouldn't spend a dime on this car until it has been thoroughly inspected by a certified Prius mechanic. This means taking it to a Toyota dealer and paying the bucks to get it inspected. It may cost money, but nothing compared to the loss you may suffer if you skip this step. The Prius is too complex for your average mechanic; they simply lack the tools and training. Get it checked.

    Tom
     
  19. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    If the 2004 still has the powertrain warranty in effect for 25K miles, this implies the odometer reading currently is 35K miles. Note that the powertrain warranty has a five-year duration so it may expire as soon as late 2008, depending upon the date of first sale.

    Press the POWER button a third time, to bring the car to IG-OFF (the car will be turned off).

    The immobilization system light should be flashing red when the car is IG-OFF. Once the car is in any of the other modes, the light should turn off.

    If your car is equipped with Smart Key, you will see the amber key icon come on only if you and the Smart Key leave the car in any mode besides IG-OFF. The car will beep to warn you that you are leaving the car powered up.

    When IG-ON, you should see the red air bag light come on momentarily. You should also see the amber MAINT REQD and snowflake icons come on momentarily.

    The BRAKE, VSC, ABS, circular brake icon, and skidding vehicle icon should come on and stay on. VSC is an option; it is possible your car may not have that especially if you don't have the Smart Key option.

    The door ajar light should be on if a door is open. The seatbelt light will be on if you don't have your seatbelt buckled.

    I am wondering why a low-mileage Prius was sold at auction instead of kept by a Toyota dealer for resale. If you are not planning further inspections, I advise you at minimum to look for the VIN labels that can be found on all major body parts including the doors, the fenders, the hood, and the hatch. If you don't find a label, that means significant body work has been performed.

    Further, if you open the hood you will see a black plastic cowl assembly that runs across the rear of the hood compartment. On the passenger side you will see a little access door that can be pried open. If you open the door you will see the VIN engraved into the body. This should match the VIN labels and the VIN below the windshield. If any numbers don't match that is a big warning sign.
     
  20. Kinare

    Kinare New Member

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    My whole life I've tried to be non-confrontational and a nice person to be around. I guess that's also the perfect description of a sucker. (Long explanation below.)

    I do my due diligence in researching what I want in a car. At this very moment I have an Excel spreadsheet a few pages long listing fuel economy (on the conservative side), estimated repair costs, financing costs, etc. for several years, makes and models of cars. I can change the gas price, fuel economy, years of ownership, just about everything, and it tells me what is most affordable in terms of cost to own over a set period of years. When I break things down to bare numbers it's much easier to make a decision (that's probably the fault of my husband, who studies graduate-level physics).

    Because we know nothing about cars, we had it taken to a non-Toyota mechanic. I initially requested Toyota, but they said no because they said the last time they had a Toyota mechanic look at a car, the dealer ticked off a list of items to fix and when they took it to another shop, they said it was fine (ie leaking oil pan, etc.).

    While I would absolutely love to get a new Prius, the numbers are not feasible compared to other models that I could buy new (like a Yaris) and I don't have the budget to pay for pride of ownership. All of the Prii (is that plural) I've seen new are going for more than $22,000. This one is selling for a little under $15,000 (72,000 miles, premium sound option, front airbags, etc.), about the same price as a new Yaris sedan.

    So going back to what I first said, I try my absolute best to not trust anyone I'm trying to buy a car from. Generally on first impression they all seem like nice people, but I know they just want my money and frankly they could care less if I give repeat business. I really hate car shopping. On both occasions where I've done so in the past, I've braced myself to get screwed over. This is no exception. I resist my initial impression, that they seem like OK people. But I know they just want to push inventory through (they have 9 cars listed on Craigslist from one day's worth of posting alone, which I just found out, and when I get home I'll Carfax them all) so maybe that's why they are impatient.

    So to sum it up, I have a lot of anxiety over this potential purchase. (That's why I even posted here in the first place.) I have no idea what mechanic this guy is taking the car to, but I really doubt it's a Toyota mechanic. On the one hand I want to walk away. But I'm fighting the nice-person side of my brain that's whining "you've spent so much time, they seem like nice people, get it over with." I'm also facing a Thursday deadline for when my husband needs his car back. (Rent a car? Not indefinitely.)

    I want to make sure the car I get is a car I love and I want it without this crappy feeling of skepticism and reservations. I figure you guys know what you're talking about and everything you're saying is going contrary to what I've done so far. At this point I'd almost rather have a transmission rebuilt on my dead 1995 Ford Taurus with 180,000 miles than deal with much more of this.

    I need Prius Jesus to come here and make it all work out :angel: You've given me more of a backbone with the tidbits of advice so far than I ever thought I could have. Any more advice on where to start over would be helpful. Ugh.