Tutorial: Rear tire alignment

Fantastic Bob. Thank you very much for taking the time to post this. Once I've had my coffee I'll read it again. Heh

We need a thumbs-up button here!

 

Thanks for the tutorial! When I first got my 2008 Prius, I could tell that it was not aligned. The dealer, Don McGill in Houston, lied of course, and said it was. My alignment guy, the owner of Southwest Alignment in Houston, found the proiblem right away, and it was just what you found. He put a shim kit in, but now I'm going to take your instructions to him and see if he needs to make any more adjustments.

Strangely, when I got my Subaru LW200, back in 2001, it had the same problem, and, again, SWA fixed it, but only after I'd been thru 5 sets of tires (on their $) in 25,000 miles. Later, Saturn came out with a recall to fix the LW200's, which were based on an Opal chasis.

Thanks again for the great work!

 

Fantastic job, Bob! This is really great.
:clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2: :clap2:

I nominate this thread for stickyhood!

 

Re: Tutorial: Rear tire alignment - possible lawsuit

I had a misaligned 2008 Prius, as I've said here, and a local alignment shop found exactly what Bob did.

So, I went down to Don McGill Toyota (Houston) today and took them some print-outs of this. The service manager was very defensive and said that he wouldn't do anything that wasn't in the manual, which is understandable.
Mostly, though, he had this attitude::lalala:

I then talked with the General Manger, Kirk Wilson, and we Wilsons (Kirk, me and - indirectly, Bob) came to an agreement that Kirk was going to call Toyota corporate, pass this information to them, and encourage them to add a fix kit, unless some other fix was forthcoming.

Failing that, I plan to have my attorney file a class-action lawsuit to force Toyota to issue a recall on the cars - the thrust of which would be that each Prius would be checked for correct rear-wheel alignment and a shim kit put in, if required. I don't want any money; I just want Toyota to do the right thing - fix their frickin' cars.

If you've had problems with rear alignment, then I would ask that you go to the general manager of your local Toyota dealership and give him/her this information, and encourage him/her to also contact Toyota; this might save us all some headaches. Mostly, though, I'm sure you can tell that I'm trying to save myself the headache of a suit; I have no desire to become involved in this, but this 'no-fix' situation with the rear alignment simply cannot continue.

Naturally, of Toyota doesn't do it of their own volition, then the attorneys will make them do it; their attorneys as much as mine, and if it gets to that point, anyone wanting to join in would be more than welcome.

Toyota's non-fix policy will not stand - I can promise you that.

Any thoughts?

 

I hadn't noticed that until you mentioned it. Unsprung weight is always a huge factor is mileage and acceleration, not to mention handling. I wonder if it's possible that the could have cut too much weight out, and made the wheels not robust enough to survive a curb hit (not that I plan on doing that anytime soon). Maybe this is one of the main reasons why the car seems (to me) to float so badly at high speed (> 70) and be at the mercy of winds.

Granted, I'm on OE tires, and I plan to change to the Dunlop A2 Sport in the near future (touring with 16" wheels); I'm going to go to a 205/85/16, I think. I'm hoping that will help the car hold the road. This is important to me because I speed - oh, sometimes - and I was doing 80 on a secondary road in North Texas and as I hit got > 70, the car started to feel squirrely on the road, and at 80 I thought it might leap perpendicular to the roadway and try to take a side road at any moment. Either that, or become airborne like a hyrdofoil race boat on a windy day. (hmm.. no pilot compartment that is - well - Death Proof!)

I'm running 42/44 (front/back) in the tires.

 

Re: Tutorial: Rear tire alignment - possible lawsuit

dear god man. first of all, wake up. a class action lawsuit over a little alignment issue? :violin:

second, toyota does not make shim kits. shim kits are made by aftermarket manufacturers for various types of cars. apparently bob has found an aftermarket kit that fits the classis (and 2g?) prius. but afaik there are no all-in-one kits that specify they work on a prius. at least none that we could find at the time. that has nothing to do with toyota, that is the aftermarket business missing an opportunity, for which we just sit and wait.

for a while, we learned handmade shims were being approved on a case by case basis under the alignment warranty period after DH spent a lot of time on the phone with tech over how to set ours straight. since, apparently that has ceased or dealers are not willing to do it. we personally have gotten burned very badly by someone coming to us from this very site asking for a handmade rear shim job.

if i were in your shoes, i'd find an aftermarket shim that works and have the alignment shop install it. and then calm down and let the issue go. prius is not the only car with a rear beam axle, so you're going to have a hard time finding any sympathy.

 

Every tire pressure thread I've seen for the Prius say 2 psi more in front than rear due to weight up front. Did you reverse your pressures in the post before last?

 

Re: Tutorial: Rear tire alignment - possible lawsuit

My shoes, thank you, per my previous post, already took my Prius to Southwest Alignment, here in Houston, who's been doing alignments for 30 years. He figured out the problem, post haste, and put in a shim. No muss, no fuss.

Why try to persuade Toyota to issue a formal kit and fix instructions? It's called a WARRANTY. If you have a shim put in, and if something goes wrong, and if Toyota can prove that it caused, or helped to cause, the problem, then you have no recourse.

Apparently, you have no experience with these legal-type things, so leave it to the ones that can handle it.

I had this same type of issue with my Saturn LW-200, and when I (or someone else) was done with them, they issued a recall and drilled out ALL of the rear-ends for people who brought their cars in, and installed a kit to make toe and camber adjustable. It also cost me Zero for lawyers, since I didn't have to use one; I just suggested that they talk to THEIR lawyers and give them my write-up on the issue, explaining their liability. I was not the only one pestering Saturn about this, so I don't know if I can take any credit, really.

Why is it important, beyond the risk that people with misaligned back-ends are at? Because it's the right thing for Toyota to do. Perhaps you're not a believer in corporate responsibility, but I am. And next time, before you think you might belittle someone, you might size them up a bit better and not bite off more than you can chew.

 

Sorry; you're right. I'm old! (that's my excuse du jour) I forgot!

 

Re: Tutorial: Rear tire alignment - possible lawsuit

sorry, but a/m shims are a fact of life. there are no such things as oem shims. to argue that, you'd have to argue that every a/m shim out there is somehow insufficient and every car out there that has one, is at risk of a voided warranty. there are a lot of cars, especially cars that have been on the road for a while, that have rear shim kits installed.

i never claimed to be a lawyer, did it? i just rolled my eyes at the crying "class action lawsuit" that i see FAR too often around here.

what risk are you at if your rear toe is .002 out of spec? seriously?

i believe in corporate responsibility. i also believe that there's an aftermarket way to fix the issue given that yours is taken care of. i believe if that's the case, then this is a non-issue that should not be pursued as a class action lawsuit recall.

i had no intention of belittling you, i try not to go there. i was simply being very blunt. there is a difference. i fail to see where i've bitten off more than i can chew in this discussion.

 

Bob, Thanks for your excellent post. This is by far the best information I've seen on rear wheel alignment. My rear wheel alignment has been out of spec for more than two years. My car pulls to the left a little, even though the front specs are center of range.

I agree with you that it's inappropriate that Toyota does not resolve this problem. Allowing thousands, possibly hundreds of thousands of cars to remain out of alignment is not right. We shouldn't have to seek non-dealer fixes.

I also agree that a class action suit is not the best way to go. But sadly, if that's the only thing that gets Toyota to fix the problem, then it's a far better option than leaving the situation as is.

I strongly disagree with the characterization of your post as "crying". That's a condescending, overly emotional characterization that reflects poorly on the person using it. They sound like a parent speaking to a wayward child. It's inappropriate language for this forum, especially when referring to a post such as yours that provides excellent, detailed content.

I don't want to deal with shim kits and trying to find a repair place that will do what Toyota won't. I'd much rather have the dealer solve the problem. Hopefully this issue will be resolved without a class action lawsuit. But if that's what it takes, I'm clearly in the class.

 

i have zero criticism and only respect for Bob Wilson. i also would like to apologize to him for dragging his excellent thread off topic.

however, wolverine's reaction is what prompted my responses. and by "crying" i did not mean as in a sniveling child; i meant "crying class action lawsuit" in parallel to "crying wolf".

or, in essence, yelling/threatening. not emotional at all.

you will never, ever find an oem solution to a rear beam axle alignment issue. and that's what i'm getting at. toyota dealers will be happy to fix your problem once a known a/m shim kit is available. that's how every solid beam rear axle car's rear alignment is adjusted and is an extremely common thing.

prius is only special in this regard because there is no well known, widely available commercial all-in-one kit. yet. if you really want change, pressure hunter to make prius sized shims. then the prius will not be a special case anymore.

 

Thanks for the clarification and good advice Galaxee!

 

hunter shims are the easiest to use and are DH's preferred brand. yes, this is the same company that makes the only alignment equipment that's worth it's salt in the industry.

if he can't get his hands on a hunter, he'll wait till he can... if that tells you anything.

these are not the types of shims you're referring to, or the ones that we have made in the past. it's a ring that's formed into a wedge with an alignment notch. the alignment machines can calculate everything so all the tech needs to know is where to line up the notch in the right place on the template and cut out the holes for the bolts to go through.

that is the industry standard rear alignment procedure.

 

Thank you Bob and Galaxee, very informative post

 

Re: Tutorial: Rear tire alignment - possible lawsuit

Eibach, the company that supplied the progressive springs for the Prius that won its class at Bonneville salt flats, has made both the springs and also front and rear alignment kits for the Prius, for reasonable prices!!