Battery dead yet again...

I'll make one more comment and then I'll let this all go,,,

(The second link above is in error, but I can't seem to edit it out.)

What many (most) people don't realize when dealing with flooded cell batteries, is that draining them below the minimum voltage ( specific gravity of the electrolite) will produce IRREVERSEABLE damage to the plates of a battery. The problem is compounded in a small sized battery, because the plates are so small.

For example, if you leave the radio on over night and have to be jumped, you have probably lost ~10 of the life of the battery. It's ability to take and hald a charge is affected. If you do it a second time, take another 10-15% off. Even minor discharges without a COMPLETE recharge will lead to sulpating of the plates. If you sit around listening to the radio all afternoon, there's pleanty of juice to start the car, but you ARE shortening it's life.

As I have stated earlier, in another life, I design and build off grid solar installations, so I know a bit about what I am talking about. True deep cycle batteries are build very differently than a car battery. A car battery is designed to give a large amp draw for a very short time. A deep cycle battery is designed for a low amperage (compared to capacity) over a longer time. The golden rule for longevity of a solar system is to NEVER draw the system down below 80% state of charge, and then charge it right away to 100%. This will maximize the number of discharges that the battery can produce.

A car battery routinely drawn down to 80% will have a very short life.

A car battery has ~80% if it's capacity at freezing. Drop the temp to -25 and the capacity is less than 50%. (This is a capacity number, not to be confused with the above draw down!) It doesn't take a genius to see that as it gets colder, we ask MORE of our batteries, when they are least able to perform.

The single biggest killer of batteries is heat. Given equal situations, a battery will die in less than 5 years on average in AZ because of it being too warm. In Minnesota it should last 8. There is no mystery why battery warrantees are 60 months!

If you have a battery that fails, it is not enough to just replace it. If it is less than ~3 years old, you must find the cause, either defective battery, operator error, (leaving something on) or charging system fault. In many cases the cause can be D: all of the above!

Icarus

 

It wasn't all that cold the day my battery failed. It was above freezing. It had been sub-zero most of the preceeding week. During that time, I took a small number of very short trips AND one very long trip (or two, really, because I came back home after a few hours).

I reviewed the manual, and can't figure out anything that I could have left on that would have stayed on long enough to drain it completely.

 

I lied,,,I'll make one more comment. Remember it is battery temp that matters, not air temp. Even if the cabin of the car gets to ~70f the battery, because of it's thermal mass, AND it's location will take a long time to get warm. If you have had extended period below 0f it is no real surprise that you are having the trouble you are, give the shortness of your trips. Remember, the battery is trying to charge AND power the 12vdc accys like the heater fan, window defoggers, wipers etc, as well as booting the car for short trips.

I go back to stating,,get the battery warm, and then do a proper bench test to find out what shape it is in. If the battery shows that it is good, then get Toyota to check the rest of the system!

Icarus

 

In theory the Prius 12 vdc battery should have an easier time in cold temps, as it is located inside the car. Yes, far away from the heater, and there is the thermal mass to consider when taking the interior from say -20 F to +50 F.

The average car/truck has the battery under the hood. That means in summer thanks to A/C and generally higher operating temps, the battery is literally roasting. In winter it's kept chilly

I've never had a problem driving around even at -40 with the headlights on, rear defog, etc, in a conventional car or pickup. I did have trouble my first winter with my Prius

Since I can afford to do so, I picked up a few of the older model VDC Battery Minder. They really do work as claimed and will properly charge and condition a battery. I'm very happy with them

For a new Prius driver, it's a bit of a stretch to tell them they have to take many extra steps to ensure the expensive 12 vdc battery won't fail. They didn't have to take such steps with their previous vehicle.

I'm not in any way knocking or dissing the Prius. I would buy another one. Matter of fact, I'm more than willing to help out on this forum if somebody has an issue and needs technical help.

IMHO Toyota needs to do a few things to keep customers happy:

1. Insist dealerships follow the Prius PDI, especially the part about ensuring the 12 vdc battery is FULLY CHARGED before delivery to customer. PDI in Manitoba is generally $1,200, not sure about other places. That's an expensive hit just for delivery and a quick wash job, if nothing else is done

2. Put a thermistor on the battery and ramp up the charge in bitter cold temps. If Toyota intends to sell the Prius in an area that can dip to -40, they had better make sure everything will work at that temp

As a kid I remember how the folks had to put the "winter front" on the car. Back then, my Dad had to dilute the motor oil with 10% kerosene, a common practise at the time, to ensure the motor would crank. In temps -20 F and colder, we'd often cross our fingers before he pumped the gas, pulled the choke out, and hit the starter

We have it pretty damn good now. Just hop in, press Start (Or turn the key in a non-Prius vehicle), and away you go. Yes, we can take little extra steps to ensure safety and reliability in bitter cold temps

 

Ok, I lied again,,,

Jayman,

I notice you are from the Peg, so no, you are no stranger to the cold. I live part of the year in the bush on northwestern On, so cold in in my blood as well.

I'm not making the argument that the battery in the Prius is perfect, but it is my experiance that many people don't have a clue how a battery works, and how to take care of it. Life is very different at -40 as you well know, as opposed to dropping to -20 overnight. For Toyota (or any maker) to design for the limited Arctic market would be crazy. Some simple owner mods, just like we use on our other cars (winter fronts, block and dipstick heater, battery heaters etc) will sufice.

You are absolutely right we have it too easy.

Icarus

 

So I don't feel tempted to continue this tennis match I am putting the fish on my ignore list, I hope he will do the same for me. I don't want to be a negative person.

Sorry this thread went off topic, glad it has been put back on track.

 

I used to have a cabin near Vermillion Bay. You wouldn't happen to be a summer resident near Dryden or Red Lake?? Just curious, I know somebody near Dryden and like to spend a week or two when he has vacation time to go fishing

 

We're smack dab in the middle of the no man's land in the triangle between T-bay, Atikokan, and Dryden. ~35kms north of Hwy 11, 40kms south of Hwy 17. No real road access.

Icarus

 

That *is* no man's land. I do know my Motorola Razr and BlackBerry 8830 don't work anywhere in NW Ontario. A lot of the cellular service in NW Ontario is analog only

A very nice summer drive is to drive south of Kenora through Nestor Falls, you come out near Emo, Ontario. I usually then drive west to Rainy River, cross into Baudette, MN, then at Warroad I turn north and cross again into Manitoba

Another nice scenic drive is to go to Dryden and head south on #502. Hwy 502 ends at Nickel Lake, you can turn left and head east to Mine Centre and eventually Atikokan, or you can turn right and head west to Fort Frances

If you intend to spend any sort of time in that area, say for the summer, you're best off getting an analog cell phone from Norwest Mobility or Thunder Bay Mobility. You may even have partial coverage then

 

We live off grid. We are there much of the year, and on the coast for much of the year. For years we had no phone, now we get analog service through tbay tel. They are taking all the analog service off as of May '07, possibly putting us in a box. We do have satellite internet and we use a voip phone, but the delay is terrible. Nearest neighbor is 20 km away!

Icarus

PS I think we are getting off topic, but what the hey!

 

We ice climb in the winter along 17, at Montreal River Harbor and Mad Moose Mountain. It's not up as far as you, but still very pretty and fairly remote.

Tom

 

I drove through Kenora, down through Nestor Falls, then west to Rainy River and back through Warroad into Manitoba in December of 2007. I noticed there is *weak* digital coverage near Kenora, but once outside of Kenora it is clearly AMPS

I have an older Nokia dual-mode phone that I set up as a "buddy" plan off my Razr. It indicated AMPS coverage most of that drive from Kenora down to Rainy River

Yes, the BlackBerry remained dead almost the entire trip

VOIP over satellite is pretty nasty, but better than nothing. The scenery in summer probably makes up for that. You probably have satellite internet through Xplornet, like I do at the hobby farm.

It's a far cry from Shaw cable internet. But again, better than nothing

 

Many's the time I've driven up from The Soo in a blinding lake effect blizzard. Go up the hill from Montreal River and the sun comes out!

T'bay tel is killing all their amps service this year. The bitch is that we (and our one neighbors got rid of our radio phones and towers when they brought in amps service. No we may be out in the dark again. The only thing T'bay tell can tell me is,,"try it,,it may work" (digital) I don't really care, as I was brought up with no telephone and indeed no road, but I'm getting to the age where the ability to call in the helicopter in an emergency is nice!

Icarus

Qbee42: You should come up to climb the Nipigon cliffs sometime in the winter.

 

As I understand it, the original number of towers was determined by Norwest and Thunder Bay Telephone based on a 3 watt AMPS bagphone. For base operations, say at a cabin, you could design a Yagi and point it at one of the towers

To transition to 1X (I would think EV-DO is years off for that region) you need far more towers to provide the same coverage provided by the old AMPS. That sort of investment is probably far outside of their comfort zone, though in the past they were mooching funds off various fed and provincial programs

Drive the Trans Canada east of Winnipeg towards Falcon Lake or Whiteshell, and you are usually in line-of-sight of a digital tower. That took a lot of investment on the part of Manitoba Telephone, but they made it

 

Yes, we DO seem to have lots of battery threads spread far and thin!

Wanted to mention that I just upgraded to an Optima in my car. Here's how it goes:
Prius Optima Aux

 

Darrell,

Yep, three threads,,, I'm staying off the others!

Jayman,

Already have a Yagi set up. Just bought a digital bag phone (ebay) to plug into it. If that doesn't work, I run it through the Wilson Amplifier I use in the car.

Icarus

 

Ha! I count five now!

 

Hi Darell

Nice photos of your install. Were there any issues with the height of the Optima compared to the original battery?