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Is my 2004 Prius a lemon?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Main Forum' started by robstrash, Jan 7, 2008.

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  1. robstrash

    robstrash New Member

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    When I got our 2004 Prius almost 4 years ago, it had a non-working MFD from the factory. I guess I should have known at that point to buy the extended warranty, but since it was a Toyota, I didn't think I would ever need it (and mistakenly assumed the MFD was part of the electrical system).

    They replaced the MFD and had no problems until 3 months after the 3 year warranty ended (was still only at 30k miles). It was the dreaded MFD failure and was quoted $4000 to replace. I got Toyota Customer Experience involved and after awhile, finally got it covered, although Toyota told me that the dealer was taking the charge for the refurb unit and not Toyota itself. I thought this was terrible of Toyota as it was them that put in a part that was bad and we didn't even buy the car from this dealer (we moved across country). This dealer had never done the refurb part so it took a month to get the part from Japan. During that month, the gas gauge also had problems and the dealer was kind enough to replace that part for free (some part in the gas tank that tells the system how much gas is in the tank).

    Last Thursday night, my wife is driving the car, merging onto the highway and the car just quits going forward. Luckily, she managed to pull off the side of the road so she didn't get killed. She tried going forward but the car would not move. A police office arrived and had a tow truck called (said we couldn't wait for AAA as too dangerous). We had the car towed to the dealer and got a call Friday that the throttle body is bad - $1300 to fix including labor. The dealer said he had never seen a throttle body (nor a gas gauge) go bad on a Prius.

    So, on a car that has 37,800 miles, that is not quite 4 years old, we have had 2 MFD's, a gas gauge, and now a throttle replaced. If you took the $4k price of the MFD along with $1300 for throttle, it would be 22% of the price we paid for the car new!

    I'm not sure what to do as I am afraid to see what is going to break next and how much it's going to cost. Is anyone else having similar problems with their 2004 Prius?
     
    #1 robstrash, Jan 7, 2008
  2. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    As far as I can tell you've only had one mechanical problem and it took 4 years to turn up and is not a common problem.

    The MFD thing is a pain and I think Toyota should have been more proactive in fixing those for '04 buyers, but it's not a critical part of the car and I wouldn't consider it in your decision about whether your car is a 'lemon'.
    The gas tank thing sounds like it was one of the TSB issues and is covered by warranty and is also just an issue pretty specific to the '04s..a minor design issue that they've fixed.

    The throttle body is an oddity and while it sucks to shell out $1300 for the that's really the only repair money you're out and ANY car could have had that much or more in repair costs after 4 years. It sounds like your car is fine and selling it now would only cost you more ultimately.
     
    #2 efusco, Jan 7, 2008
  3. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    I agree with Evan. The MFD was a design problem, which has been subsequently fixed. No one wants problems with their new car, but new technology often brings new problems. I wouldn't worry too much about what is going to fail next. The Prius is a good car, and has one of the best reliability ratings of anything on the marked. You got unlucky, but there is no reason to assume your bad luck will continue.

    Tom
     
    #3 qbee42, Jan 7, 2008
  4. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    maybe you just have a prius that is a bad one:)

    if your not comfortable with the fact that this all happend then you just sell it and buy a new one.

    next time something brakes you are not that happy and maybe dont want this car anylonger.

    its better to sell it now and buy a 2008 model.

    only if you can life with the fact that this happend and it was just bad luck ...... then keep it and love the car:D
     
    #4 Flying White Dutchman, Jan 7, 2008
  5. robstrash

    robstrash New Member

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    If you count not being able to change the temperature "non-critical", then I agree, but I think turning heat and AC on and off is somewhat critical. Considering I had to call Toyota Corporate 2 times to get the MFD covered since I was outside warranty, even if the MFD is not "mechanical" it is still a $4000 charge to replace. It seems Toyota does not make the dealers aware of the refurb MFD program either.

    Also, I was told that the gas issue was not covered under warranty (since I was more than 3 years old). It seems to be Toyota's practice to admit to faulty parts, issue a TSB, but then only cover it during warranty.

    At this point, I don't think I have "a lemon" per se, but certainly some very expensive repairs for a car that is not even 4 years old and less than 38k miles on it. My 1995 Mazda didn't have much work done until last year and that was to replace parts that were just worn after 12 years. I guess I was just lucky with my Mazda. I assumed that the Toyota reliability was as good or better, but apparently not in my instance.

    Your estimate of $1300 being typical repair after 4 years seems high with the cars me and my family have. I don't include standard maintenance in this amount.
     
    #5 robstrash, Jan 7, 2008
  6. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Please don't be defensive, you asked for opinions and advice...if you're going to be pissy toward those giving you what you asked for you're not going to be very happy here.
    The AC can be turned on and off via the steering wheel and the temperture adjusted via the steering wheel controls as well. That's not to say that I disagree with the general premise that the MFD is important to have as there are several features that can't be reached.
    None the less, the fact that the MFD was a poor design in ALL '04s doesn't lend itself to the conclusion that YOUR Prius is a lemon. The question wasn't "is the MFD a costly repair if it breaks out of warranty?"...it was "Is my car a lemon." Also, a refurb is only about $600 and you could get a salvage MFD on ebay for far less than $4000.

    That's probably true, I don't recall the details of the TSB. But, in any case, this isn't something that goes bad, it's a matter of if there's a problem then the TSB should be done...if the problem was bad enough to bother you you would have noticed it much sooner than 3 years. It's nice that they did it, but it was not a necessary repair and if they'd have offered you the option to have it done you probably would have said "It hasn't bothered me up to now and if it it's not a safety issue I'm not spending the money to fix it."

    This is no 1995 technology car and repairs are going to be costly when needed. You can get an '08 anything and you'll find repair costs higher than your '95, but yes, the Prius moreso with its unique and advanced technology. That's why I chose to get the extended warranty (haven't used it yet so I, too, am out $1000 much like you) because of my concerns about new technology in a first model year car...not saying your decision was a bad one, just that our rational was different...FWIW I never buy extended warranties on anything...except this Prius.

    I don't believe I said $1300 is a typical repair, but it's not unusual either...some percentage of all cars are going to require some major repair...those people are going to wonder if their car is a lemon or assume the manufacture builds bad cars...at the same time there are a few percentage that will go 200k miles and never pay for any repair...they'll think that it's got to be the best car built. We had a $3000 transmission repair in my wife's 5 year old Ford Windstar...bad luck, but the car is still a good one. (though we did sell it due to the age and concerns I admit).
     
    #6 efusco, Jan 7, 2008
  7. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

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    How many 04's have had MFD problems? I've not heard much on PC about the problem; my 04 has 38k on it with no MFD problems.
     
    #7 Bob Allen, Jan 7, 2008
  8. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I suspect that only Toyota could provide the actual statistics, but it's been frequently mentioned here. Do you have the Extended Warranty Bob? It's a design flaw with the display, not individual bad displays, so depending upon time and luck and conditions it may go bad early or late or never.
    Have you seen Hobbit's dissection of one of the bad displays?
     
    #8 efusco, Jan 7, 2008
  9. luckyboy

    luckyboy Member

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    Normally, once a car is out of warranty you will want to avoid the dealer. A normal repair like a throttle body will often cost double or more at a dealer than a local specialty shop, of course since we all drive Prii here it might be a little trickier to find a place that services them...
     
    #9 luckyboy, Jan 7, 2008
  10. galaxee

    galaxee mostly benevolent

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    a refurb unit is a little over $500. typical parts markup is about 35%, if the dealer took the hit for you that's nice but don't feel too bad for them.

    there was a tsb for the gas gauge... they sure did have issues in the 04, and a known fix. tsb's are basically a note to the techs: "here's an issue some cars may have, if the customer brings it in here's how to fix it." they are covered under warranty and only if the customer brings the car in with the mentioned issue. a recall is the only thing that is always covered regardless of warranty status. they may have goodwilled that one for you, at any rate it looks like you've found a good dealer.

    throttle body: they didn't cover that under powertrain warranty? DH has seen one and only one go bad.

    you can complain about the theoretical cost all you like, but if it's not coming out of your pocket i don't get it. that's what warranty is for. especially on the first year of a new design. it's there to take care of you and you've been treated fairly well imo.
     
    #10 galaxee, Jan 7, 2008
  11. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I've got an '04 too, and I too had to replace the MFD, but did it under warranty. So if you had a dodge, and waited beyond the warranty, you'd be in the same fix. As for repairs, I've had a few. We're over 60K miles. We got the extended warranty. We waited to fix the MFD and the ecu that controls the smart fobs. Face it. The Prius, despite these new technology issues is still rated highest by consumer reports, and others. What does that mean? It means if you'd have gotten another car, you'd have something even more likely to go on the fritz. Plus, you'd be getting worse mileage. ok my 2 cents just expired.
     
    #11 hill, Jan 7, 2008
  12. RonH

    RonH Member

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    I believe in lemons. Call it superstition, but some cars are just born under a bad sign. The next fix may really sting. I'd say sell it while its running and minimize your loss.
    Now I believe I'll have a beer.

    I also don't think a lemon is indicative of a car brand's overall quality.
     
    #12 RonH, Jan 7, 2008
  13. PrematurelyGray

    PrematurelyGray Junior Member

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    I agree with Ron, to a point. We all know that quality manufacturers suffer error rates, albeit lower rates, like any other manufacturer. Statistically, sometime, someone is bound to get a DUD.

    My '96 Camry was not legally a lemon, but it presented early and unusual problems that were probably the cause of larger, muy expensive problems after year 5 (including having the engine rebuilt and machined). It just came off the assembly line with some unfortunate flaws. I put a lot of money into that car, though I did drive it for 11 years. In retrospect, I should have either been a lot more vigilant and aggressive with Toyota or traded the car in. :mad:
     
    #13 PrematurelyGray, Jan 7, 2008
  14. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

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    Evan: nope, no extended warranty. hopefully, it won't go out, but if it does I may be able to get a refurbished unit.
     
    #14 Bob Allen, Jan 8, 2008
  15. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    ext warranty or not
    if toyota made a design flaw then thy need to replaced it

    thats what i think!:D
     
    #15 Flying White Dutchman, Jan 8, 2008
  16. robstrash

    robstrash New Member

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    I think that is what started the bad flavor in my mouth. I got a brand new car from the factory and it was broken. They replaced the MFD with a new one, then 11 months later they announced a TSB admitting that they part had a design flaw and there was a good chance it would fail. However, Toyota decided to only cover this while under warranty. This seems unethical to me as you know you have a bad part but won't do anything about it.

    I think I am now watching the car with an eagle eye because of this and it magnifies any other problem. Also, I was glad that the electrical and power train warranty were more than 3 years, but it seems that all the parts that fail are not part of any of those systems :mad:

    As for the gas tank problem, I'm not aware that it was an TSB. One day it just started working incorrectly - would go 200 miles and still be on full and very odd things like that. Had no problems before that time with the gas gauge.

    Oh well, whatcha gonna do? I hope the part arrives today so we can at least get the car back running soon.

    Update: As for the replacement MFD that is refurb, Toyota corporate was the one that told me it could be done for "only $1500". So I don't know why Corporate says $1500 while everyone here says the dealer can do for $400.
     
    #16 robstrash, Jan 8, 2008
  17. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

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    Regarding refurbished MFD's: is Toyota simply replacing one badly designed part for an indentical and equally badly designed part, or is there a redesigned MFD?

    Are some owners paying 4000 bucks to have the same thing happen again?
     
    #17 Bob Allen, Jan 8, 2008
  18. Flying White Dutchman

    Flying White Dutchman Senior Member

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    i think your not the only one and you need to jiont and get toyota in court for this!!
     
    #18 Flying White Dutchman, Jan 9, 2008
  19. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Imagine a circuit board ... lots of resistors, capacitors, and other components. The MFD's that fail (as was the case with ours) simply have a faulty component ... the part is replaced, then put back in service. I'd rather THAT be done, then have the entire MFD (perfectly good, with one bad component) used as land fill.
     
    #19 hill, Jan 9, 2008
  20. Bob Allen

    Bob Allen Captainbaba

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    If that's the case, and I have no reason to doubt you, why are owners having to buy new MFD's? Can't the dealer's service department handle the repair if given direction on procedure by Toyota?
     
    #20 Bob Allen, Jan 9, 2008
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