I guess we have all been had.

Wait a minute!! you mean it doesn't work? and I just ordered one!*^)&^$*&^

 

Can anyone out there (preferrably with a good deal of knowledge in the appropo sciences) tell us if this would actually work?!

heh heh...

Perhaps I could install one in my head, and utilize more brain power!

 

This will work. Here is the equation:

1) There is sucker born every minute (Quote by someone famous and rich)

2) The set of books cost 97 bucks (Website price)

3) A fool and his money are soon parted (I heard that somewhere)

SO:

1 fool/min x $97 x 100% = $5820/hour.

You could afford a Hydrogen car with that cash flow.

 

MythBusters did actually test a hydrogen generator. It produced minuscule amounts of hydrogen, not nearly enough to run the car.

 

Actually, it's not completely crazy. What this guy is selling is obviously snake oil, but the basic approach can work.

It's called hydrogen fuel injection, and has been around for many years as a way to improve mileage (a little) and reduce emissions. Just like this guy's system, you use distilled water and some electricity from the alternator to make some hydrogen, and then mix it with the fuel. It improves the combustion of the fuel to get more energy out of the fuel. And that improvement pays for the energy you used to electrolyze the water, and then some. Here is one company that installs these systems in semi trucks. They claim (much more realistically than the snake oil guy) 10% improvements in mileage. When you haul stuff in semis, it doesn't take very long for a 10% improvement to pay for the system. It doesn't use much distilled water -- a gallon lasts for 6,000 miles.

I've heard that the word is getting around, and these systems are getting popular with the truckers.

 

Does anyone who doesn't have a vested interest in selling something, back this technology? I believe it's snake oil.

 

wow all the highly accurate information...

 

It certainly is possible. Hydrogen packs quite a punch -- so long as there is plenty of oxygen around. Remember, they stopped making those Zeppelins a long time ago.

I can't see how it would be economically viable for automobiles, even at very low use. You would need a pretty good sized and steady power source to create the gas (dissociate the H2O to "HHO" or H2 and O2), and I really wonder how you would get a net benefit out of this equation. You start with water, then put in a lot of energy to dissociate it, then you burn it, lose a lot of heat, and recapture some of the energy of the expansion of the gases at combustion. I suppose that because the ICE already is creating the initial heat and flame, and that the ICE already is running a generator to creat a certain level of current, that in some engines you are simply recapturing energy that otherwise would simply dissipate as heat. It seems to me that you would need a pretty large engine with a large alternator/generator and powerful, high-amp batteries. Sounds like large, over-the-road tractor trailers.

The 10% improvement seems to just barely pay for the installation of one of the HFI systems. Here is the company's graphic representation of dollar savings for a highly-used semi. Note that the 10% efficiency improvement just covers the cost of the system (amortized over 52 months). My guess is that a four-year payment plan would not make sense!

 

The link at the start of this thread is slimiest of snake oil. The concept on the other hand might work.

It was invented where I work (JPL) in the mid-70's. They filed a patent, so I can't claim that they had no vested interest. But they were paid simply as researchers.

The only somewhat supporting evidence that I've seen is a trucking company that bought four of the things from the Canadian company (not the link that started this thread) to evaluate, and after their evaluation, ordered 25 more. If anyone knows their gas mileage, a trucking company sure does.

I can find no truly independent testing of the technology.

 

This thing looks very similar to the rig I installed on my old 1950 Ford. I think I ordered it from an advertisement in the back of Popular Mechanix. The water really bubbled a lot but it didn't do much else.
Like P.T. Barnum said: "There's a sucker born every minute"

 

The concept of introducing H2 into an engine will work but, unfortunately, most of these "systems" produce the H2 so inefficiently that the benefits are usually eaten up by the energy it took to make the hydrogen.

 

The Zepplin that went up in flames in New Jersey was painted with the same rocket fuel used in Estes Model Rockets...Powdered Aluminum.

 

Hi All,

Ok, how can it work? Pretty straightforwardly. The fuels we use are liquid. So, they are not gasses when they are lit off in the cylinder.

What governs the efficiency of engines? The basic thermodynamics that the ratio of the input to output temperatures of the cycle is directly proportional to heat engine efficiency.

What does that mean in a Piston Engine? It means the peak temperature during the combustion event in ratio with the temperature of the gases at the maximum expansion, or pretty close to the exhaust gas temperatures.

So, how do you increase efficiency? You either lower the exhaust gas temperature by having a large expansion ratio - as in done in the Prius and Diesels. Or you increase the peak temperature.

One way to increase the peak temperature is to use a higher pressure injection system. This has been greatly developed in European diesels. Which allows smaller injector orifice, and thus smaller droplets. How many bars on that common rail this week?

Adding H2 and O2 to the combustion process is going increase the peak temperature too. A few mechanisms for this are possible, and I am not a combustion physics expert. The energy of the H2/O recombination contributes heat quickly at the beginning of the cycle, which will either shatter the fuel droplets, or evaporate them. The fuel then burns quicker, and the quicker it burns the hotter combustion peak gets.

One way to look at it is that the H2/O2 gas matrix combusts in a HCCI mode, and takes the rest of the fuel along with it. Sorta a chemically induced HCCI engine, using spark initiation of a burning ignition matrix.

One can really see how this will work with Diesel fuels as they are much more viscous, and with a lower evaporative partial pressure than gasoline.

One research topic I can think up off-the-cuff is if massive H2/O2 injection might allow diesel fuel to run in a spark ignition vehilce. Another would be if it would allow high poor point fuels (biodiesel / SVO) to have better effiiciency in cold temperatures.

The whole downside of this is that NOx emissions increase with combustion temperature. Can free radical H+ help disociate those? Also, is there a possibility of Hydrogen embrittlement of engine components ?

 

The original (1976) invention claims as its purpose to reduce NOx:

The Canada company also claims that the device reduces NOx as well as particulate emissions from the diesel engines.

 

Except that energy value of the liberated hydrogen must be less than the energy it took to get it out of the water. THAT energy was already in a form that was going straight towards propelling the vehicle (engine power) until you siphoned it off to drive the inefficient alternator to inefficiently split water to get hydrogen which you'll inefficiently burn later on.

It takes more energy to split water than you can get back burning the hydrogen. If that were not the case then we'd all be driving water-powered cars (actually the planet would probably have exploded at some point before cars were invented).

This is exactly the same as the battery in the Prius, and it's why you get better gas mileage when you can use the energy of the gas engine directly rather than converting it to charge in the battery and back to motive force with the electric motor, i.e. why the motor isn't only used to charge the battery.

If you like the hydrogen generator idea, then buy a Prius since it does a MUCH better job of energy juggling than these hydrogen things ever possibly can.

Z.

 

Hi Madler,

My guess is if you vent off some of the oxygen, and run rich hydrogen, you could reduce NOx.

I listened to the radio interview on the Canadian company website. It sounded like the company representative said it took care of everything but NOx, polution wise in Diesel engines. Especially CO, which was undetectable after modifications. I believe he said/implied NOx was still high, but slightly reduced from stock in his second comment on there. Which would mean that there are other NOx generating mechanisms than just high temperature. And that improved combustion robs those other mechanisms of something they need.

NOx is the bugaboo of HCCI experimental engines.

I guess we are all just going to have to boil down our #1 and put it in our cars in the future - .

 

Hi All,

With regard to the poor device in the OP links too, do not waste your money. The thing injects the H2/O2 backasswards. By hooking up to a vacuum line, H2/O2 is injected in high volume during low throttle, and low volume at high throttle. This inconsistantcy between low and high throttle is going to cause the engine computer to hunt all over the place to zero out the exhaust O2. Which will result in too much gas being used sometimes and then too little gas being used other times.

A system that works would need to be coupled so that at high power, high H2/O2 is injected and proportionally controlled to match whatever power level is used.

First the challenge is to control the H2/O2 generation versus engine intake flow. So, that means a Mass-Air-Flow signal to a PWM amplifier to a constant voltage current source set to the electropotential needed to electrolyze water. There will also be a time delay issue in the control. It takes time for the bubbles to come up out of the water. So, the electrolyzer will need to be designed to minimise that time. Which probably means some kinda automatic water level control.

Next you need some kind of venturi coupling into the intake ahead of the throttle, not behind it. Which means some kinda of H2 sensor up stream to shut the thing down in case of a malfunction (generating H2/O2 while engine is stopped). Otherwise you have an explosive gas mixture floating around under the hood.

The only impact cheap device could have would be to help de-carbon old cars. Which could be done with throttle body cleaner allot cheaper. And from the customer comments, that sounds like what its doing. Although I would not trust any of the mileage improvement claims.