Hydrogen Hype

From that article:

The gist of the book is that hydrogen is not economically feasible to use for transportation, nor will its use reduce global warming, because of the cost and greenhouse gases generated during production, the low energy content per volume and weight of the container, the cost of the fuel cells, and the cost of the infrastructure. The author argues that a major effort to introduce hydrogen cars before 2030 would actually undermine efforts to reduce emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide.

I would have to agree. Hydrogen is a fantasy, and a way to delay doing what needs to be done now to conserve our resources and minimize CO2 emissions. When every car on the road gets 40+ mpg, and every pickup gets 25+ mpg, then we can talk about hydrogen. I equate hydrogen with flying cars, a fanciful notion, but one not likely to ever see the light of day.

Harry

 

Ok you knock it but what do you think would do better in an everyday driving for every person not just those with a garage to charge an ev. Also can you charge an ev in 5 minutes? Hydrogen can be made from water with electricity and if we go to nuclear power plants we would not use oil for power. I am for what ever does the job of ending pollution and getting us off of oil. Every time I check the problem with ev is limited range and long recharge times. One decade ago fuel cell cars were just theory and now they are driving around. no not on the streets yet but give it time. Even if I have to drive the 10 miles or whatever to put hydrogen in my car I would do and laugh at all the people spewing pollution from their tail pipe.

If you think it doesn’t take oil to get oil then I don’t know what to say.
As far as I know non of the big auto companies is doing research into the ev as a mass market vehicles but I might be wrong on that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Apr 15 2007, 02:53 AM) [snapback]423530[/snapback]</div>

Yeah that’s it. I want to drive my ev to a gas station and leave it over night. I would rather have the charging stations on the streets like others have suggested. Batteries are expensive so to have packs just sitting around to me is a waste. To convert a prius to a phev with descent range I have seen quotes of 6-10k. That is a lot and a friend told me just converting to lithium ion batteries would cost like 2k+. I don’t know what it would cost to make it hot swappable (so to speak).


My point is if the manufactures back hydrogen the public will to. I am sure people said the same thing when people started talking about replacing horse troughs with gas stations. If we end up with hydrogen vehicles we need to make the infrastructure for them. if ev’s become mass produced we need to build charging stations not the opposite of what we have.


The majority is going to decide what is going to be used. If politicians and the media are behind it then most people will be too.

Myself I am undecided as to what I like because the arguments are great on both sides of the table. If hydrogen stations become common place I can drive like I do now without worry or I can buy an ev and have to worry about charging it and blah blah blah.
If charging stations become common place the hydrogen vehicle is stupid because were am I going to fill it at. It becomes like the ev the only place to get hydrogen is at home.

 

Fast charge batteries have been around for a while. You simply need the current available to do it. I'm talking about charging in 10 minutes, not 2-3 hours.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the latest FCV designs they are incorporating much larger battery packs. Basically, it sounds like the newer designs are PFCVs. It's pretty clear that BEVs are where we should be putting research dollars (esp the money we throw at auto makers). Continuing to do basic research on hydrogen and nano-structures to contain it is a good idea. However, for transportation BEV hold more potential.

Stationary fuel cells for power generation are a good thing. That's where the research for hydrogen should be going at this point.

 

Everytime I think "someone should write a book about it", somebody already has. Hydrogen research is just a way to spend money on 'green research' with the already known outcome that it will fail so that status quo can continue.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Apr 17 2007, 12:37 PM) [snapback]424677[/snapback]</div>

I do get this. Battery packs are big, bulky, and heavy even the lithium ion packs for cars. If we were to have battery exchange the battery station (what would replace the gas station) would be the size of a small warehouse and in some cities would have to be as big as an aircraft hanger to hold all the batteries not to mention the fact that they each need a slot to charge from. Then we would have to have a people who can lift heavy weights because not everyone can easily lift 80+ pounds. This also means that the battery packs need to be accessible considering people keep stuff in the trunk of the car this makes it difficult. So this idea of battery swapping is as ludicrous as you proclaim hydrogen to be.

As darelldd has shown charging stations can be done easily. And the great part is that you always get to park your car in the shade. Like I said I would rather have charging posts on the streets and in parking lots. But you seam to think that we need to keep gas stations for some odd reason. If we switch to ev we do not need them but if we go with hydrogen then we do need gas stations.

I am not against the ev or the hydrogen car I want to get rid of oil burning cars. If the big corporations and government back hydrogen and hydrogen cars are mass-produced (mass production makes things cheaper. Example the Ford Model T)why keep touting the ev but until that time I agree the ev is better but if all you can buy is the hydrogen car and the only place to charge an ev is at home what are you going to get. Before you go off if the ev’s become mass produced and the only place to get hydrogen is at home why buy a hydrogen vehicle.

 

Resurrecting an older but still relevant thread: Subscribe to read

Financial Times, Harry Dempsey and David Keohane in Tokyo and Song Jung-a and Christian Davies in Seoul JANUARY 9 2025, Financial Times, "Toyota rethinks its bet on hydrogen"

In 2014, Toyota’s then-president Akio Toyoda said he had “seen the future” and that the release of the Mirai, the company’s flagship hydrogen vehicle, would mark a “turning point” for the automotive industry. After selling just 27,500 hydrogen cars over the following decade, the world’s biggest carmaker is no longer so certain. “I can’t say for sure that it’s a bright future for hydrogen,” Hiroki Nakajima, chief technology officer at Toyota, told reporters at the Fuji Speedway racetrack in Japan in November.

After selling just 27,500 hydrogen cars over the following decade, the world’s biggest carmaker is no longer so certain. “I can’t say for sure that it’s a bright future for hydrogen,” Hiroki Nakajima, chief technology officer at Toyota, told reporters at the Fuji Speedway racetrack in Japan in November.​

Toyota (and others) have paid a significant tuition in the school of hard knocks. Only to discover the Chinese EVs are gutting Toyota sales everywhere there is free and open competition. Hybrids are better than ICE cars but with EVs and some PHEVs, that is not enough. As for hydrogen, we've poked fun at them for decades and even California tried their best only to see Shell drop out of the experiment.


I give Toyota an "A" for effort but something less for hydrogen thinking.

Bob Wilson

 

And yet just yesterday I was reading about the new maker with a 1,000 mile range, a 6 minute fill and a slick design and building a factory. Goes with the 1000 mile battery and the fast charging. Let me know when I can buy one and refuel it just off every interstate exit.

 

Gasoline, hydrogen, fuel cells, lithium batteries...

All of this will sink into the abyss.

Remember this tweet!

The future will belong to cars that run on water.

 

Well Toyota keeps trying, this time with something bigger (what's that saying,"Go Big or Go Home").
トヨタ、第3世代となる新型燃料電池システムを発表！ディーゼルエンジン並の耐久性実現し大型商用車にも対応 | MOBY [モビー]
courtesy of CarMoby magazine of Japan partial translation:
"On February 14, 2025, Toyota announced that it has developed a new fuel cell system (FC system).

This will be Toyota's third-generation FC system, which is scheduled to be introduced in markets such as Japan, Europe, North America, and China from 2026. It will also be unveiled for the first time at the "H2 & FC EXPO (Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Exhibition)" starting on February 19, 2025.

Toyota says it developed the third-generation FC system with the aim of improving durability, fuel efficiency and other performance, and reducing costs, particularly in order to meet the needs of the commercial sector.

Durability has been improved to twice that of previous models, making it equivalent to a diesel engine, and it is also maintenance-free.

In addition, fuel efficiency has been improved by approximately 20% compared to previous models, and significant costs have been reduced through innovations in cell design and manufacturing processes.

Thanks to these advancements, the third-generation FC system can be used in passenger cars, general-purpose applications such as generators and ships, and can also be installed in large commercial vehicles."

Designing and building Fuel Cells as well as creating hydrogen are the easy money. They still have to figure out widespread lower CSD (compression, storage, dispensing) costs. Perhaps larger FC vehicles that use copious amounts of hydrogen can bring those costs down through the tried and true economies of scale method but it is the hardest and most stubborn part. Transport is also a hard and costly problem where a lot of research and demonstrations have led to no two ways are the same across the industry.

The lightest element has required the heaviest amounts of capital to tame it.

 

Some are disillusioned about hydrogen cars,
Frustrated Mirai Owners Sue Toyota Over Hydrogen Headaches | Carscoops

 

Is this the most important statement that can be taken from 18 years ago? Who would have thought that we'd actually have over 30K fast DC chargers and >150K total public chargers in 2025?

Mike

 

And millions of NEMA 14-50-like dryer outlets and 100s of millions of 110/120 VAC outlets.

Bob Wilson

 

How do you get hydrogen at home?

 

That is easy:

• empty plastic soda bottle
• 2-3 tablespoons of sodium or potassium hydroxide
• about a cup of water or so, swish to mix
• insert a rolled stick of aluminum foil
• a wad of paper towel to block the bubble mist
• a big balloon that fits over the mouth of the soda bottle

It starts slow but gets pretty vigorous in a few minutes and hot. Best to do this outside as setting off a balloon of hydrogen inside a house is bad news.

Bob Wilson