Red Triangle, possible inverter pump?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by resrunner, Jan 27, 2025 at 11:08 AM.

  1. resrunner

    resrunner New Member

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    Hey all, new to the forum and wanted to post my current situation. Since about 3 months ago I've had 3 instances of the red triangle of death come on. The first time I unplugged and reset the 12V and it disappeared. The 2nd time I let the car sit for a few days while I did some research and believe it's the coolant inverter pump (after which the codes disappeared). I obtained an OBD scanner and have pulled the codes p0A80 and P3000.

    The battery voltage appears to have only a tiny variation between the blocks, up to .3 when engine is off and .2 when running.

    Checking the yellow coolant pump tank there is zero movement in the liquid. I have a replacement pump ready to install, but wanted to see if I should check any other readouts for the battery system!
     
  2. Hayslayer

    Hayslayer Junior Member

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    Unfortunately, the ICWP has nothing to do with a P0A80. That is strictly "replace hybrid battery".
    Often, the battery can be repaired instead of replaced, if you are handy with electrical DIY and understand electrical safety.
    No one needs to die messing with an HV battery, and far too many people feel they are qualified to DIY it. Based on what I've seen from DIYed HV batteries, the majority probably should have Velcro shoe straps and stay far away from hybrid batteries.
     
  3. MAX2

    MAX2 Member

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    What program do you use to read the data?
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    The voltage variation on the pack is the problem... Seeing only low variation is normal under low amp loads, but if you floor it and accelerate super fast (for a prius) or slam on your breaks at high speed you'll see huge amps and the variation will be big enough to throw the codes you got.

    First step in fixing this is a high voltage trickle charger to charge and balance the hybrid battery pack. Maxx Volts and Hybrid Automotive sell these products, but they're a bit expensive and you can build your own for much less: Build Hybrid Battery Maintenance Gear For Under $100 | PriusChat

    Learn more here: FAQ - Hybrid Automotive
     
  5. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    It's just a bunch of 8 volt batteries wired together in a series. It's not rocket science. It's very easy stuff and the risks are minor as long as you learn what makes the pack dangerous and what makes the pack safe.

    DIY is also the most affordable way to repair. As in replacing one bad module only cost $35 for the module, but take it to a Toyota Stealership and they'll lie to you and try to get upwards of $5K out of you to replace everything with brand new to get it back on the road.
     
  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I'm all in favor of encouraging people's thoughts of DIYing.

    I'm also in favor of giving them the best chances of success, even when that means not downplaying risks.

    "a bunch of 8 volt batteries" wired in series will add up quickly to a voltage demanding respect.

    If a person already understands exactly what kind of respect is demanded, there's no reason they can't safely do the work.

    Whoever doesn't already have that knowledge can learn—there are ample resources online—and as long as they take that need to learn seriously, there is no reason they can't learn to safely do the work.
     
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  7. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Yes... Anything dangerous you gotta start out being super strict about safety and then you can adjust once you're familiar with it. One challenge for working on these packs is people are reluctant to spend $100 on true rubberized electrical safety gloves to protect you from shock. And will often buy something less expensive that's respectable by using multiple layers of cloth and thin rubber as gloves. But once you've been working on these packs for years you don't really need to (or at least I've not seen anyone) use gloves at all because it slows you down.

    I've been doing battery packs going into my 7th year and there's only a few times there were brief sparks and not other incidences with Toyota hybrids, other than off gassing which I usually catch and safely dispose of by putting tiny water balloons over the vent holes.

    Honda hybrids on the other hand are always more sketchy to me. I've had Bumble Bee aftermarket battery sticks explode at the weld between cells when recondtioning. Also, first time in all these years a bit over a month ago I got a legit shock working on water damaged PCB board for a Lithium upgrade kit for Honda Insight.

    I put my fingers in the wrong spot for a brief 1/10th of a second during dissassembly and got a full 168v DC to a finger. There wasn't a burn or any damage, but the muscle memory in that particular finger is still way more scared of where put my hand ever since. It's almost like that finger still sends me that feeling whenever I think about it, but the finger is fully functional with no damage.

    And can't say it was much different than when I've been shocked many times over the years in the fingers by 120v AC wires, but all of those voltages to just a finger is no big deal compared to if that electricity goes through your body near your heart, which can very easily kill you if its for long enough of a duration or even a short duration if it hits the heart muscle with the exact right frequency to cause arrest.

    The main thing is electrons are weird and even the smartest Electrical Engineers get confused by their behavior at times, so you have to treat it a bit like being close to a wild animal that might suprise you if you aren't careful
     
  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    EEs really do have access to very extensive knowledge giving electrons' behavior in very fine detail, when sitting down to work it out. It's just that nobody really has the between-the-ears horsepower to be solving those equations in real time while poking at a thing on a workbench. So shortcuts in thinking get taken. That's where the surprises sneak in.

    Practice, experience, and accumulated wisdom normally lead to fewer of those surprises being bad ones.
     
  9. Hayslayer

    Hayslayer Junior Member

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    Spoken exactly like someone who fits the bill. I guess you've never seen someone electrocuted or seen someone get fingers blown apart by a high voltage accident. Things happen, even to fully trained and qualified people, sometimes even when working in an electrically safe area. It's all fun and games, especially for those who 'think' they're qualified....until it isn't. Then it's often too late, a life changing event happens, and things are never quite the same when you're trying to pick up a soda with 3 fingers and no thumb.

    I've seen a lot of DIY on HV systems and VERY few are quality jobs.
     
  10. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    I've been on here almost every day for 13 years and I've yet to read of single incidence of someone being injured from working on a battery pack. That doesn't mean we shouldn't practice good safety, but it does mean Toyota designs a good pack in terms of safety. But Honda, a little less safe.

    That being said I know of plenty of serious injuries from people working on regular old car stuff, especially at shops that overwork their mechanics.

    I've also been in the tree pruning business for 35 years and I have a whole process I go through when climbing and pruning around power lines because 220v AC and 440v AC that's directly connected to the power grid, which in my opinion is far less forgiving and death or frying a limb off is well documented.

    Knowledge is power. Being too scared to DIY requires a really big bank account/job that periodically gets stolen by thieves fixing your stuff in dishonest ways.

    DIY battery repair for Prius has a very impressive safety record.
     
  11. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Yes, but a structural engineer calculating loads on their structural design is much more straightforward than something that we still can't get clear on being a particle or a wave due to "wave-particle duality" so electrical engineers calculating how to ensure all the electrons keep flowing in a very specific way is not as straightforward... Electrons do weird things, especially when they leak or create magnetic fields that resonate with other fields.

    Wave-Particle Duality: Is an Electron a Particle or a Wave?
    LabXchange
     
    #11 PriusCamper, Jan 27, 2025 at 10:36 PM
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2025 at 10:43 PM
  12. resrunner

    resrunner New Member

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    Hey I used the Vgate icar pro 2S with the car scanner ELM app
     
  13. resrunner

    resrunner New Member

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    So, one person recommended getting a charger to balance batteries. One recommended whole system replacement, and then a 3rd option that was up in the air was to replace cells?

    If I wanted to go down the cell route, which I may cause I have both car friends and electrician friends, how would I determine which cells are the worst offenders?

    If I went recharging route, is that just a temporary fix and the batteries are still ultimately going bad?

    And for full replacement, I'm assuming recommendation is OEM?
     
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    People who, for whatever reason, want to be obscurantist can make particle physics sound as baffling and mindbending as they want.

    People who don't want to be obscurantist (Feynman comes to mind, for example) will generally choose a writing style that isn't about confusing or scaring off their readers.

    There are definite weird things to learn about electrons and friends. They have properties we can also find in waves in our macro experience, and properties we can also find in particles in our macro experience. This just means they aren't exactly anything familiar from our macro experience. It doesn't mean we somehow have to decide which familiar thing they are.

    It's as if we've grown up on a farm where the only two crops are cucumbers (long and green) and pumpkins (round and orange). Somebody shows us a carrot (long, but orange). Weird.

    A level-headed sort might think something like "ok, there's more kinds of things than I knew before, and these are kinda tasty."

    But someone who wanted to keep people in a mystified frame of mind could write stuff like "omg carrots nobody can decide if they're cucumbers or pumpkins".
     
  15. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

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    Recharging route makes module replacement work more successful. The first module you have to replace is always the longest lasting success, with each future module replaced being less and less successful. And reconditioning route will make battery run like new for up to 18 months. If you check the serial numbers of each module you can determine if one has ever been replaced because the number will be out of sequence.

    This guy sells the most thoroughly tested/quality modules: Hybrid Car Battery Distributor | Contact Us | 2nd Life Battery
     
  16. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    The reality is a human touching 120 vac at an outlet, as you have many times, has received the same shock you would get cutting into one of the home's "240 vac" service lines, which is actually two split phase 120 vac lines. Assuming you were not doing it in the rain.

    If I cut it with my pole saw I would not get shocked at all since the pole is fiberglass. Obviously I don't do this on purpose but I have handled live service wires without incident.

    I do have a degree of respect for a guy who climbs trees with a chain saw for 35 years and certainly have a better understand of his "weird" electrical and battery opinions / recommendations.

    Glad you picked up on the contrary recommendations.

    Each is coming from a different perspective with different reliability and cost goals. The high voltage "charge" guys often suggest connecting a permanent cable inside your hybrid battery and running it into the exposed hatch area so a high voltage charger can be hooked up at the house. Most people who try this find it unreliable and often sell the used high voltage chargers here. When they do this level of charging, all the Toyota electrical safeties are bypassed for this connection.

    Battery Reconditioning Overview – Hybrid Automotive
    The above link describes the Prolong (get it?) charging system.

    That page also has a link to their tester for individual battery modules. You might find three or four bad nimh modules and replace them with other used modules.

    Reliable? Not really. Probably the worst reliability option. Low cost? Even if you do it over and over again every 6-12 months? Sure.

    Given testing and replacing modules seems to be the silver bullet every diy'er wants when his battery fails, it is best to review what 18 month reliability might take to achieve:

    "How To Properly Repair A High Voltage Nickel Metal Hydride (NiMH) Battery Pack For Hybrid Vehicles". The Hybrid Guy



    Testing and replacing nimh modules is really what all the "reconditioned" hybrid battery sellers offer (Dorman at most auto supplies and many others) as they try to sell you a set of used modules which are better than your existing assembly. Reliability is poor but slightly better than the high voltage charging above. Reconditioning companies promise a year or 18 months trouble free performance but often fail causing you repeated downtime. Their responsiveness to "guarantees" disappears as well.

    At some point disappointed owners throw in the towel and buy new oem battery modules and enjoy ten or more years of hybrid battery reliability.

    Priuscamper and a couple of other "members" may offer them a discount code for an aftermarket lithium set of modules (failed and no longer sold) or newer sodium chemistries from the same company. Unfortunately they have poor track records perhaps slightly better than the reconditioned options.

    New OEM nimh is reliable and longterm.
     
    #16 rjparker, Feb 1, 2025 at 12:33 AM
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2025 at 2:08 AM
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  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Those wires haven't reached the panel in your house where all the protective breakers are yet. They are two 120 VAC lines and a neutral, yes, but unlike anything you encounter in your house, they have the full short-circuit current capacity of the pole transformer that's serving your house (or your block). Leaving electric shock aside, the fireworks that will begin when your pole saw bridges one of those lines to the neutral might not stop until a utility worker shows up with a bucket truck to cut away what's left. Your pole saw will never be the same, and your eyes might not, either.

    It's probably weird to have video of one's parents' house burning down, but it happens that I do—so help me, the volunteer FD that responded sent one member along to record it for training. From the moment the overhead electrical service separated from the burning house and fell to the ground, it never stopped leaping around on the ground spraying molten metal and exploded vegetation until the bucket truck showed up. Everything else in the video becomes very very dark—even the flaming house—with the camera's autoexposure swamped by all that light.

    I do think there are s'posed to be secondary fuses up there by those pole transformers, but if there was one on that pole it never blew.
     
    #17 ChapmanF, Feb 1, 2025 at 3:12 PM
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2025 at 3:37 PM
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  18. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    The impedance of a body through a fiberglass pole saw touching a 120v service line is too high to cause metal to spray. Breakers have nothing to do with it.
     
    #18 rjparker, Feb 1, 2025 at 3:36 PM
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2025 at 3:56 PM
  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    May you go on thinking so indefinitely, and never have a time when you find out.

    The bare wire those two insulated 120-volt legs are twisted around is not just something to hold them up and be anchored to the house. It is a lovely low impedance grounded neutral.

    The moment the pole saw blade touches that and goes into one of those insulated legs is the moment the fun will begin.

    It's not necessarily that you'll personally receive a dangerous shock at all. There are many different kinds of fun.
     
  20. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    I have touch a 50kva fed 120 vac service conductor wire with no issue. I was not grounded. Creating a dead short ten foot away is fun teen foot away. Not advocating it but people confuse a 5kv primary with a 120v secondary.