Featured The EV version of the "Dust to Dust" report

If climate change and geopolitical problems didn’t exist, sure, gas cars would be ideal.
But since they do exist, we have to find ways to move ahead with other technologies.
If there is a better way than electric, I’m all ears

 

For me, you can ignore all the geopolitical and climate change issues and I would still rather be driving an EV.
I do agree though that if you include the benefits of health, foreign policy, pollution and CO2 it becomes an even more solid argument.
What the heck, through CO in there as well

 

Right, but a lot of people dont care about climate change. I wont pretend like I live my life worrying about something that doesnt affect my short human lifespan.

I can tell you what people do care about. Its money.

Give people a cheap car thatll be cost efficient to own and they dont care if its EV or ICE.

 

I was mildly surprised a couple years ago by the MSRP of the Versa. It's up 3k this year. Hey hey some peeps gots the do ray me and others don't even have the rayme but no matter what we has got. it's usually not enough.

vacant oceanfront lots in Fl , houses damaged by hurricanes demolished and lots cleared for sale 1 to 2 mil.
Hurricanes Ian and Nicole aftermath in the Daytona Beach Area – Orlando Sentinel

https://www.landsearch.com/beachfront/florida

America

 

agreed, that's why the need to be nudged

 

It's also going bye bye, as is the entire econo-compact car segment in the USA. In 2025, there will be no more Versas, so get one now while you still can if you're interested in them. Econo cars are overpriced as a result. It's cheaper to buy a new Versa than a 4-year-old one, at least according to Edmunds. The Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris and others are also still very high. The entry level car is going bye bye. My question is, will an EV econo car take that place? Imagine a $15,000 EV, or even a $20,000 since we can assume most people will save on fuel and such, that is just as good as the common econo-compact car of today? An EV Nissan Versa? An EV Mitsubishi Mirage? An EV Toyota Yaris? Any EV Honda Fit? An EV Chevy Spark or Sonic? An EV Ford Fiesta or Focus? Get me one that's $20,000, goes at least 200 miles, and doesn't cost more than $180 to insure and I'll buy it.

 

$180./mo?

 

For whatever reasons, he has a huge insurance bill.

 

That's what the Leaf cost me to insure, as well as the Avalon for a while. I live in the great state of Colorado, so very high insurance on most everything. It doesn't matter that I have a nearly perfect driving record, only one speeding ticket in my 37 years of driving, and the wife zero, and no one else on the policy.+

When looking to insure a used Tesla Model S I was quoted nearly some $400 per month.

 

After my 72 charger I got into a late 80s tempo - 2.3L 4 cyl /5 speed manual overdrive I picked up at auction for a song and dance and got lucky, only needed a passenger door and fender. Other things around that time were not so lucky, cest la vie! Mentioning a fit, I looked at one with intent the first day it showed up at local dealer. https://www.caranddriver.com/honda/fit-ev but it was lease only as I found out after asking what the MSRP was $42k `~(^v^)~` ..... intent evaporated "real quick". Looking back, if plugshare was even around back than I more than likely wouldn't have found it, or any plugs around here either. Still, that didn't stop me from california dreamin or transitioning to whatever it is I am now, I think I am, therefore I am, I think. ^haha^

I never was interested in a versa although I was actually absolutely amazed at it's MSRP a few years ago. The few Nissans I see on in traffic are typically near band new. I did drive a rental one, sentra sr or something like that with the eco system, The tranny was really strange to me, if I took my foot off the GoPedal, it rolled like it was in neutral. I was able to figure it out enough to get a record setting (for that car that I was driving, it showed on the dash) 47 mpg driving back home 3 miles from the gas station after filling it up before returning it the next day, whoopy.. it was a rental after all, alot like the 2020 prius I rented for a couple days. A huge step down from the 2017 Prime, but remembering it also was a rental and most likely would have behaved a lot different if I'd been it's only driver.
Did you notice one of my recent posts or the older one about the newer Aqua s (not available here and I can only imagine why, Knot ! ) Do you know of anyone else besides you, me and maybe @Leadfoot J. McCoalroller whom might be interested in one if they were available here?
I hope you don't need a quote to know I'm responding to your post above

 

Let me add a couple...
-the sweet smell of gas fumes as you fill up
- the nice sunsets caused by the smog over cities like LA
- and all those crazy people complaining about the foul air

My lifetime average in my Model 3 is 210 wh/mile or 4.75 m/kwh
My solar panels paid for themselves after ~6-7 years...I estimate15-20 more years on them, so maybe 7 cents/kwh on average.
Can you do the math for me with these numbers???

Tell me when you can build your own refinery with those prices!

Sure not everyone can be as happy with an EV as me. But I doubt anyone with an ICE can match those numbers with a similar car

Mike

 

Do you solar wizards always leave out how much you dropped up front that got amortized over the break even calc you ran on your rig? Am I supposed to guess or just use a variable?

 

& also leave out the ecological nightmare these panels wrought when constructed and eventually disposed of...

Currently there are a few companies trying to work on responsible disposal and recycling.

However the amount of land that has to be used for large scale solar array's is devasting for the former local ecosystem and wildlife.

If you have solar panels on your roof good luck if you need roof replacement- good luck doing the ROI on if you should replace the Solar Panels at the same time.

There is not an easy economic feasible answer for energy production = environmental responsibility right now - it seems the equation is balanced in similar ways with risks, damage to the environment either in the manufacturing process, mining. acquisition- or eventually the disposal for all our current energy answers.

Energy use is not a 0 sum game for any alternatives right now - you do not get usable energy for nothing -
you would think humans would understand that when they look at how their own bodies function - everyone has to take in energy to survive destroying plant or animal matter and then will generate waste from their own bodies that has to be disposed of.

Some do try to do this in a low impact way but in the great scheme of things how could any human call themself a friend of the environment by living a modern lifestyle.

Maybe the trick is to mindfully minimize your footprint on the earth to be as small as possible (avoiding consumerism mentality -as one example) -aren't the methods we currently have less than adequate for the task?

Who is a greater environmentalist - a human with all his wealth, inventions and intelligence - or the lowly earthworm who humbly goes about their business the same way everyday of its life building back the earth?

 

Over 1½ decades ago it cost us $30k up front - not financed. Dollar deflation would be like us paying over $40K in today's deflated dollars. At 8kw tho - that's a big system - big enough to zero out our $225 average monthly electric bill back then - plus charging 2 cars. But the ever deflating dollar & rising electric costs means that it's an investment that continues to grow in value - even if we had financed. BTW - costs per kwh for solar are now less than ½ of what we paid back then.

 

No, I consider the original cost, plus expected replacement cost - incentives. I then divide that by the expected production over the life of the panels.
I’ve included those full calculations in previous threads. I’d be happy to do so again if you like.

I don’t include the lowered death rates due to less pollution.

If you would like to run those numbers for your particular case, you need to know the upfront cost, available fed, state and utility based incentives. I’d recommend adding in two replacement inverters for each inverter in your system.

I didn’t consider increases in the cost of electricity. If you want the numbers to look even better, do that as well.

 

Why were you amazed? There have always been cars in that price range (adjusted for inflation). Last time I checked, the sales of Versas and Mitsubishi Mirages were increasing as their production comes to an end.

Nissans have terrible automatic transmissions or CVT's. The good thing is, for the time being, that the base Versa comes with a manual.

No, I hadn't noticed. I do believe we might be the only three interested in such a vehicle. I know more and more SUV diehards that are determined to never step foot in anything called "sedan" or "hatchback" ever again in their lives. But, with the increase demand for the econo, subcompact class of cars, there may be more, perhaps many more. I'm not really sure to be honest.

 

The Prius c was cancelled in the US because most buyers were unwilling to pay more for the fuel economy with our typical gas prices. My Sonic ended up being about $7000 less than it. Then Toyota even canceled the Yaris, which was a Mazda2 by that point.

With needed repairs that came up during the install, my 5kW system was $20k. Then minus a $6000 federal tax credit. Now that the by directional meter is in place, my monthly savings should average around $100 a month. I could sell the RECs for another $10 to $13 a month.

Like the battery in your PHEV, or all the unrecyclable plastic in every car?

Cause capitalism is reactive to such issues. With 25+ year life cycles, the waste stream isn't large enough yet to pull in those looking at just profit.

And fracked gas isn't?

Not sure exactly what you are saying here. It is best to install solar on a new roof, and reputable installers won't do so on old roofs, to avoid the hassle of having to remove panels to do roof work. The typical warranty periods of asphalt shingles and solar panel production rate are both 25 years. Do both at the same time, and then deciding on whether new panels are needed will happen when they have to come off to replace the roof.

 

Yes, I did!.
But I assumed a small interest rate lost because I paid cash for my system. When I had my system installed they also did some minor roof repair (the company does both roofing and solar) and only charged me $1000. All the quotes I had gotten were for a minimum of $5000 but I didn't subtract out that $4000 in savings...maybe I should have.

I picked a roofing & solar company for my system and they included a one-time free panel de-install/re-install -- hoping you will pick them to do roofing work, although it is not required. The system is designed to come down in just an hour or two so it isn't that big of a deal. My rood is concrete tiles and probably won't need any work in the next 115 or 20 more years

However, I must add...sadly this ~40+ year old roofing then solar company went out of business during COVID due to lack of business and the changes in CA solar rebates. I'm not worried about finding a company to do any repairs since there are many that install similar systems in the area...and at 9 years old I've not not one issue and the system paid for itself sooner than expected because the general electricity rates have gone up so much.

Mike

 

Going out of business seems to be a constant theme in the developing solar business right now.

Many companies like Tesla Solar Roofing Systems concentrate on regions were tax incentives/Rebates and metering regulations make their systems begin to make financial sense but will not offer services in the rest of the USA
Tesla Solar Roof cost and availability: How to buy Elon Musk's energy tiles (inverse.com)

Many of the initial roofing supply companies that supplied solar asphalt shingles have abandoned that business also.

GAF is one Company that has stuck with the development of solar shingles and continues development of an interesting product.
Solar Roofing For your Home - Solar Shingle Roof Experts - GAF Energy

If your area offers Tax Incentives/Rebates and metering incentives keep in mind many areas of our country offer neither.
Federal Incentives are usually actually tax incentives that require quite a large tax bill to really access I believe.
Private Utility rebates on the other hand can be quite accessible - when we built our home we received actual monetary Rebates when we purchased our Energy Efficient- water heater, heating/cooling system and dryer. I found that program straight forward and easy to access sending in receipts to the local Utility and getting a check back in the mail.

Our local Utility would offer no incentives for Solar and has regulations and policies that would discourage tying in any alternative generating systems into their grid - and maybe another point of contention currently - is that many Utilities are backtracking on their Net Metering Policies after people have made this investment in solar in their areas and the Utilities change or eliminate the metering buyback polices that made installing solar in their Utility district attractive.

If you sell your house before you reach your payback period it would be interesting to know if the next owner would assume the cost and maintenance of a solar system or could see it as an added concern and a detriment to buying/owning the home.

 

This is an awful - & all too often Achilles heel of selling a home. The financing of solar systems is a very sketchy business - done at unreasonable rates that people sign up for, not looking into the back end of some of the deals.
The industry falsely touts that a house is worth more when it has solar but that's not true. No one buys a house because of the electricity costs being cheaper or zero - tho it might seem like it should be part of the equation. They buy it because it's the most they can afford in an area based on its crime rate, schools, affordability, scenic views, proximity to work Etc. This view expressed after brokering many many millions in sales - back when Millions actually had value.