Featured Tesla Autopilot recall probed by safety regulator following new crashes

You really know how to say exactly what is most likely to infuriate Elon...

 

It is not just Tesla

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-opens-investigation-into-ford-crashes-involving-blue-cruise-partially-automated-driving-system/ar-AA1nRvgh?OCID=ansmsnnews11

How could these Manufacturers possibly have adequate legal and monetary resources to defend against what surely must be a mountain of lawsuits in the sue happy USA.

Are these companies somehow exempt from lawsuits against this technology at this time- or - are people/lawyers just waiting until the NHTSA drops the hammer before seeking compensation/ legal remedies?

 

Doesn't matter - because that doesn't follow the Ops narrative where only ugly old blue pri get a free pass

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I believe other companies are being more careful, even responsible, in their advertising and instructions for these systems. They could be using better driver monitoring, and some limit more advanced functions to certain roads through geo fencing. They aren't overpromising. If they are working on a full automonous system, it isn't part of any consumer products.

On the other side, Tesla might be more proactive when it comes to reporting incidences to the NTHSA than the others.

 

I’m always amazed at how much corporations can afford to pay for lawsuits.
And they continue with the same mindset afterwards.
Whether it’s cars, cribs, cigarettes, roundup or whatever.

of course, 3m stock tanked right after i bought it due to hearing protector lawsuit from military

 

To repeat an old Leslie Nielsen joke, 'Don't call it Shirley!' But I'm thinking about my Freedom Of Information Request.

Here is the NHTSA recent report triggering this thread: https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/inv/2022/INCR-EA22002-14496.pdf

• ODI continued to observe and follow up on SGO-reported crashes after August 2023 up to the recall filing and generally observed conditions similar to those identified in the analyses.
• Jan 2018 - Aug 2022
• 446 crashes
  • 15 fatal crashes
  • 18 fatalities
  • 101 injuries
• Aug 2022 - Aug 2023
• 510 crashes
  • 14 fatal crashes
• Total (Jan 2018 - Aug 2022)
• 956 crashes
  • 29 fatal crashes

Now we can ask about the non-Tesla, fatal accidents in the same time period. But that would not give us a relative rate. So these qualifiers:

• For the same range of model years - this will normalize the time of all fatal accidents for the fleet of non-Tesla vehicles.
• What were the odometer readings, if known, of the fatal crash vehicles by Tesla and non-Tesla.

This lets us test these hypothesis:

• What is relative contribution of Tesla fatal crashes to the same time frame, non-Tesla vehicles in the same model year?
• What is the probability of a fatal accident of a Tesla versus non-Tesla for odometer miles, if known.

Out of the total fatal accidents in the same period, are the number of Tesla fatal crashes a significant problem? Is someone blowing up a mole hill into a mountain when there are bigger fish to fry.

Are Teslas more deadly per mile than the rest of the non-Tesla vehicles?

Fortunately, NHTSA has an open, Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS), that may be able to answer these questions and give metrics.

Past experience has found the FARS to be a technical beast taking me more time than expected. I have other chores to do so I may not be able to get to it right away. Of course anyone, even our most enthusiastic skeptics have similar access and are welcome to get some facts and data to backup their BS.

Bob Wilson

 

When you call it "autopilot" and "full self driving" it kind of encourages people to be very lazy and unsafe.

I mean, toyota, honda, kia - nearly everyone now has some form of adaptive cruise control and has for years, which is basically what Autopilot is. But when you hear the words "adaptive cruise control" you likely interact with it differently than you do "autopilot". the latter implies a significant level of automation that one can trust - because the language is often used for airplanes that have had autopilot for decades now.

 

the data for that is where? It's just as likely that the most clueless - inconsiderate - lazy - nonhypervigilant - texting - shaving - makup applying drivers - which are most likely to get in accidents anyway - will still find a way to crash there autopilot vehicle. And if it makes it any more difficult for this crowd tocrash, then all the better .... regardless of whose self-navagating system it is that they're stupidly driving.
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Yes, it is the worst drivers who will get into accidents. I never said it wouldn't be. But I have seen far more people make much bigger claims about tesla's AP and FSD systems, than people say similar about other adaptive cruise control systems. Many of which have supported steering around bends and following roads at speed for years now in other manufacturers.

There's an aura associated with Tesla that has more people assume it is more capable, and if they don't have systems that tell the driver to put their hands on the wheel and look forward often enough, then it gives those same bad drivers a bigger excuse to pay even less attention.

I think people who put an orange in their Toyota or Kia steering wheel to trick it into thinking someone is holding the wheel is also stupid. But the effort required to trick the system in other manufacturer's cars into thinking the bad driver is paying attention is higher. Tesla has had to push more aggressive reminders via software updates and the NHTSA is investigating whether those adjustments are sufficient to date. The NHTSA isn't going to single out Tesla just because its Tesla. The regulators aren't frothing at the mouth to bop Tesla. They see an issue, and they are seeking to address it. Its entirely possible other manufacturers making advanced features more accessible on more models and lower trims over time will trigger the same regulatory oversight later. But Autopilot is one of the earliest of these more advanced lane and steering assist cruise systems too. So it may just be that it has more data backing it up.

that still doesn't change that there's sufficient data to make the safety focused regulatory body investigate this issue. Entirely possible in the investigation they find similar rates and concerns for others and it results in a national regulation adjustment in the US that other countries then adopt.

It should also be noted they have made changes in the past that extended time before notifications (aritcle from aug 2023): Tesla is allowing no-hands driving with Autopilot for longer periods. US regulators have questions | AP News

 

You make some good points. It's my understanding ( and Elon made a similar observation ) that when you use video samples from beta test drivers to train an AI you don't know exactly what the cars will do in real life while driving it. When you change the car design or the nature of the sensors our understanding becomes even more nebulous.

 

I agree with you guys but who do these drivers get into crashes with - only other bad drivers or in most cases helpless victims who are driving correctly.

When these self driving systems have glitches, malfunctions or errors is it only the drivers of these vehicles that suffer the consequences or in many cases do innocent responsible drivers who would never dream of driving irresponsibly get caught up in these accidents?

When someone decides to drive drunk, do they only have accidents with other irresponsible people?

The NHTSA is investigating Tesla and Ford for their use and design of Auto Driving Technology for very good reasons.

'Critical safety gap' between Tesla drivers, systems cited as NHTSA launches recall probe (msn.com)
"The agency also closed a nearly three-year investigation analyzing 956 crashes involving Tesla vehicles up to Aug. 30, 2023. Nearly half of the accidents (467) could have been avoidable, ODI said, but happened because "Tesla’s weak driver engagement system was not appropriate for Autopilot’s permissive operating capabilities.""

People seem to be often very casual with lives other than their own.

Why not form a Cooperative Commitee of all Auto Manufactures with the NHTSA and design a Universal Auto Driving System with adequate safeguards/protections and do proper testing then roll it out. Implement a Basic Standard for every Auto Driving System Design that must be meant - required rigorous testing by the NHSTA for real life operation situations then and only then can a System be Licensed to be installed in a vehicle.

 

Tesla calls its adaptive cruise control "Traffic Aware Cruise Control" (TACC). It's the lane assist in addition to TACC that is called Autopilot. By default, this option is Off (per profile ) and only TACC is available. When you enable it, a message shows up on screen telling you that you are still the driver and have to be monitoring the road and keep your hand on the steering wheel at all time.

As for Autopilot in airplane, there must always be a pilot in the cockpit and it allows the pilot to perform other related tasks like monitoring the trajectory, the controls and so on. It doesn't make the plane "self flying".

 

Last night, my car downloaded 2024.3.25 (FSD 12.3.6). Rapid software updates make the NHTSA 'policeman's lot is not a happy one.'

Bob Wilson

 

Many cars have both ACC and LKA. Some for as long as Tesla has been around.

Because people are dumb, you need more than a CYA message with these systems. Tesla has not adopted the best driver monitoring systems as quickly as others.

Entertainment media has left the general public with an impression that aircraft autopilot is more capable than it is. That's why Tesla is criticized for using it to name their ADAS.

 

I feel that self driving is a bit like when air craft first started to be invented. Sure, the first few airplanes weren't exactly the safest most refined things on earth. You'd probably want to take it easy, fly close to the ground, don't take chances, etc. And those building them probably were like Elon Musk promising lots of things that weren't really possible at the time.

But years later flying in an airplane is now the safest way to travel. If no one had pioneered human flight we'd still be all on the ground.

Now, does everyone like to fly? Not really. I like being in a small aircraft, but commercial aircraft is more stressful and not at all fun. It's practical, it gets you there. That's what self driving will become. It will be practical, it will get you there. That will be about it.

Edit:
Meanwhile, people who take it too seriously don't see the big picture. No, there are no truely safe self-driving cars right of yet. You need to fly them low, don't take chances, etc. But that doesn't mean the technology is junk, get rid of the abomination. One day you'll be checking your bags into the trunk of a self driving car. I just hope it comes with a drink and snack.

 

That question only arises because it's devoid of the big picture. When you look at "regular" bad drivers - and per million driving miles they have X amount of accidents - you then compare THAT quantity of accidents against responsible drivers per million miles.
Tesla self-driving features are capable of detecting bad driving & it shuts itself down if it sees you're one of those irresponsible people.
It's completely irrational to delay use of a feature that saves lives because some doofus wants to beat the system wearing 3D glasses that have eyes staring out of them

"hea hea ... now i can text w/out my driver assist shutting itself down"
It's nearly as irrational is saying that because some doofus used a dining room chair as a jack stand & it crushed him - that we should halt dining room chair production & usage & then after another study - redesign chairs because people misuse things that are perfectly fine for a particular intended purpose.
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I'll reply since you quoted me.

The question was - are innocent, safe, responsible victims involved in the NHTSA investigated crashes of the Auto Driving Systems? - Yes (was the correct and only answer needed).

What is a common sense solution that removes the Self Driving technology until it is prime time ready and allows for innovation, cooperation and future implementation.

I propose this:
Why not form a Cooperative Commitee of all Auto Manufactures with the NHTSA and design a Universal Auto Driving System with adequate safeguards/protections and do proper testing then roll it out. Implement a Basic Standard for every Auto Driving System Design that must be meant - required rigorous testing by the NHSTA for real life operation situations then and only then can a System be Licensed to be installed in a vehicle.

I see nothing wrong with automobile safety equipment - recently bought 2 new cars to get the latest PROVEN/TESTED safe driving technology - Rear Cross Safety Alert, Blind Spot Monitors, Automatic Emergency Braking etc....

Autopilot, Self Driving, FSD is a technology I look forward to when it is perfected and reliable. It shouldn't be allowed in cars until it is completely ready.
Don't many others share that same concern?
Ralph Nader urges regulators to recall Tesla’s ‘manslaughtering’ Full Self-Driving vehicles - The Verge

Safety regulator probing whether Tesla’s recall of 2 million vehicles with Autopilot was adequate to fix safety
threat | CNN Business

Tesla Autopilot linked to hundreds of collisions, has ‘critical safety gap,’ Federal regulator says (nbcnews.com)

NHTSA opens investigation into Ford's hands-free driving tech after multiple deaths (yahoo.com)

Are other people's lives so insignificant that it is an impossible task to just hit the pause button on Self Driving Vehicles until proper safety protocol, development and testing is done to develop a safe system for the benefit of all society.

Or is caution, the development of a full self-driving system that everyone can benefit from something to make fun of and trivialize

I readily admit I have never driven a self-driving car - am not real familiar with its features but look forward to its promise and many advantages - but unfortunately do prioritize others and my own life and would love to see some common sense on the subject and cautious development and eventual implementation for the benefit of all our society.
Do realize the common sense and caution are not popular or valued traits on the internet.

 

Two comments:

1. You get used to the electronic nannies and get casual in your own situational awareness no matter if the nanny is an assist or billed as FSD or whatever it is named this week.

2. Part of the reason for new owner's expectations is the look ma no hands ads non Tesla automakers are running.

 

this was a funny one:

60653643

 

Problem with that system is it only checks near the rear of the car. Someone look at their blind spot, sees nothing and start to change lane. Someone was going fast on that lane and rear ended them.

"But he came out of nowhere! There was no one when I checked!"

Any system can be abused.

Tesla's ADAS is always looking. While you are focusing on that dog on your left that is running toward the street, you might miss that kid on your right that is running towards his dog and has just ran into the road. Tesla's ADAS will see it and could save you from hitting that kid.

Another example is, the light turn green, you're distracted and started to go without looking if cross traffic has stopped. You didn't see that driver that was also distracted and is about to run his red light. Just one car with an active ADAS system could prevent the t-boning that is about to happen.

Current ADAS, with its shortcomings can still be life savers. Looking at the numbers of preventable accidents posted in the weekly Tesla and Dash cam videos in the Wham Bam Tesla/Dash Cam YouTube channels are a testament to that.