Project Lithium Soother Test

What you would say about it makes it sound like quite the sophisticated item, doing more than just altering signals. What TheLastMojojomo would say about it makes it sound like a simpler item, basically altering signals.

And still, what would really move the community's knowledge along would be to find out, not what one or another person would say about it, but what it actually does.

In your testing it passed along one error from one particular event causing a code to be thrown.

It's still a leap to go from that test to "will always pass along any errors".

Again, post #17 laid out the three possibilities:

A. it won't ever pass along any error you would normally get
B. it will always pass along any errors you would normally get
C. it does something else
​

In your test, there was an error reported for the event that occurred. So your test, on its face, rules out A.

Whether the truth is B or C (and, if C, what the "something else" really is) would be hard to answer from any kind of black-box testing, but could be very easy by examining the item.

 

No... because it doesn't directly compare how long it took for the error to overcome the Signal Soother... Which is why I specifically asked you to do a video comparison with a Multimeter and Dr. Prius synced screen recording with a bad module installed.

Again... any device where it's design purpose is to obfuscate signals from the Hybrid Battery that indicates errors... is not something I'm going to test for fear of severely damaging my Prius or Hybrid Battery.

Yes... because I knew as long as the Battery ECU could directly detect things like voltage difference and Internal resistance... I would have warning of a failure and the Hybrid Battery pack would not turn into a bomb thanks to things like limp mode.

Yes... Because the solution to errors occuring in a Hybrid Battery can not be a device that masks those errors. The Signal Soother crossed the saftey threshold to where I immediately stopped beta testing.

That is not the question I asked... I asked if you would specifically allow a Signal Soother to be installed if your original NiMh pack was failing and throwing an error code with no other research being done into what was causing the error... I want to you to answer that question specifically and if you think it's a safe thing to do and that installing a device that alters signals from a failing NiMh Battery to make it seem healthy is the correct solution for your failure code. I said nothing about changing battery chemistries... I'm only concerned about the Signal Soother aspect in an OEM pack to prevent an error code... and whether you think that's the safe and correct thing to do to prevent Hybrid Battery failure codes.

 

So with your own hypothetical senario being the only option to perceive, I in that hypothetical universe would choose to get a new battery and not deal with someone who I do not know any background on or if they have the skills to design a product to do such a thing to an OEM NiMh HV battery.

You're missing his point. It has nothing to do with knowing someone's background or skill level.

He's asking, if your car was OEM and had a battery fault due to a 'bad module', would you be ok if even Toyota's number one tech in the world just changed the software so it no longer sees a problem module and then tells you everything is ok now? Would you accept that as a repair?

If your TPMS tells you the front left tire is flat, do you just reset the TPMS, ignore the flat tire and keep driving? Over and over until you wreck the car?

 

Well, it would be hard to drive a car on a flat tire, so most people would pull over unless there are a bunch of red and blue lights behind you like those people on the news channel. So, Yes,I would drive and ignore the TPMS light actually, especially if I know the TPMS is just telling me the TPMS sensor in the front left tire has a dead battery.

on the other hand...

I once was driving to Big Bear and TPMS light came on, it was on the twisty road right before you get there, and it was light snow with fresh snow on the side of the road. This wasn't the time to pull up torque and see the dashboard with PSI per tire is how I thought initially but was wrong. What I thought was just cold temps lowering pressure to trigger the alert was actually a flat tire. Odd part I didn't realize it until ready to park at camp spot for the night. I know I didn't have run flats but, the tire performed like one.

These days, as soon as a light turns on, I pull over to investigate.

 

This fact does not matter at all. Those cables that the Signal Soother is placed on measure Internal Resistance and Voltage. They serve the same function in both a Lithium and NiMh pack... they measure Voltage and Internal Resistance. You should never have those readings being altered at any point whether NiMh or Lithium... it's unsafe.

The Signal Soother's entire design purpose is to obfuscate/delay real errors being detected in the Battery pack and it prevents safety measures from being taken. I myself would never install a device that does this... as it is the near equivalent of installing a 20 amp fuse on what is normally a 10 amp fuse circuit after it blows... doesn't really matter if that circuit runs off of Lithium or NiMh. It is a massive oversight in safety and logic. You are bypassing the primary safety mechanism of the Hybrid Battery without verifying what is actually wrong in the hopes that the issue isn't severe enough to cause a meltdown. In @sworzeh's case... it did cause a meltdown.

 

I know there is a lot more to this battery stuff as it relates to the BMS and ECUs of a Prius that no one here knows about. Even the differences between the Japan spec Gen 1 Plug-in/US Spec Plug-in on whats in the ECU and how it manages the vehicle, how it conforms to local emission laws and how it operates/tunes the vehicle overall is through this network of ECUs which all are inner linked. Applying specific Japan spec coding to a US spec makes the US spec quicker sure but it wouldn't pass CA emmitions...

The thought that Jack knows something we all dont know has been my thought. I say that because of what I've learned about the Prius and the ECUs most here wouldn't know, unless that guy with the corvair is sleuthing around here, he might know, he knows alot... There is a key piece here that we dont know and that is what's in the specific ECUs relating to batteries and how it does the magic reading the batteries attached. For all we know all logic and options we are going with are wrong and Jack knows the secret sauce recipe and rightfully not saying much to not give it away.

Does anyone know the difference from the factory between nimh and lion prius electrical components in the models for which some had either or battery? if nothing is different then why does the battery type matter here as an issue? Or did Toyota put one code character different in one ECU vs another?

 

You need to reread @sworzeh's post... what you're stating is not correct.

Yes you're correct that P0A80 was the issue... and that issue was bypassed with the Signal Soother. A Signal Soother bypassed P0A80 and in turn led to the meltdown. The Signal Soother is the safety equivalent of installing a 20 amp fuse on a 10 amp circuit... it potentially allows the Hybrid Battery to run itself into the ground to the point of meltdown before the larger fuse blows.

 

Gen3 v’s sold overseas had lithium, a different bms and the lithium battery was located in the console between the front seats. Toyota knows how to do it.

 

wait... the Japan spec only has a battery under the console or is that an additional battery? pics? Professor Kelly just taught me that the Gen 4 has the Lithium option. Here I am thinking in the US the Gen 3 had both, hmmm something isn't adding up here.

EDIT: watching his disassembly of the Gen 4 Lithium breakdown now my brain goes to why arent we trying to use those cells? Hmmm. and they all get up to the 207V... hmmmm

 

I figured out what the Signal Soother does... I just didn't watch the Signal Soother video close enough. He says exactly what it does between 1:25 and 1:55:

Jack States - "It takes 1.2 Volts difference before P0A80 is triggered by the Battery ECU and the Signal Soother boosts that up to 2.4 Volts..." I didn't pick that up the 1st time because there's 20 seconds of rhetoric between those two statements.

So his device must take the delta voltage and half it... 0.6v difference equals 0.3v.

1.2V = 0.6V
1.8V = 0.9V
2.4V = 1.2V

Not a smart nor safe idea at all. I get that a single cell in a OEM NiMh Module is 1.2v's and Jack's LiFePO4 cells are 3.2v's - 3.6v's.

I've heard that P0A80 triggers after a 1.2v difference between modules... but I can't find any actual reference to the specific number or condition that will trigger P0A80. Here is what my manual says:



A Hybrid Specialist website states it's a 20% voltage difference between modules that triggers P0A80. This would work out to about 3 volts difference between modules depending on charge voltage. Doubling that to a 40% difference is not something I'd want to do.

For any Module that already has a voltage difference big enough to trigger P0A80 detected by the Battery ECU... You don't want to double that voltage and delay P0A80 with a Signal Soother. Doesn't really matter if the chemistry is NiMh or LiFePO4. Unbalanced modules are unbalanced modules. Allowing a higher voltage difference between them is asking for a meltdown like @sworzeh experienced.

 

Good catch ... that's sho'nuff what he says there.



I would still put more stock in actually seeing the circuit to understand just what it does and how; a couple sentences in a video still leave a lot of that unsaid.

In 1080p the resolution is almost good enough to start on it. There seem to be seven little 8-pin SMDs on one side and six on the other, along with some assorted resistors and caps. I can't quite make out markings on the 8-pin devices. Opamps, perhaps?

There don't appear to be any higher-power components on it to support Azusa's idea that it "distributes, manages and regulates things"; at first glance it looks like a modifier of sensed voltages.

I did notice how Jack's script for the video related a 1.2 volt error threshold to the nominal voltage of one NiMH module. Of course, Toyota hasn't really said what their threshold is (what I've always heard about it is smaller than that, more like a fraction of a volt) and I don't see a clear argument why it would be based on the nominal voltage of a cell (as opposed to, say, some empirical determination of how far apart the blocks get in an old tired battery). That part of the script sounds kinda like handwaving to me.

 

is saying the same as the below no?

 

No. At least not without an impressively strained reading.

 

some just have a way with words ingestable by many, others are not so fortunate.

 

I would be very happy if nobody could ever mistake anything I write.

That said, I don't know how many people really did in this case.

 

I recommend that you disassemble the battery and balance the cells manually.
Blocks 13 and 14 work outside the limit! 20.53/5=4.106 V per cell! with a maximum limit of 3.7 this is very dangerous!

 

Hello, someone recommended I should comment in this thread.
I briefly skimmed the posts thus far, but didn't see any technical details to respond to.

I would like to offer the following two bounties:
-I will pay $250 to the first person that sends me a V2.5 PCB.
-I will pay $250 to the first person that sends me a Signal Soother PCB.

Send me a PM if you're interested in claiming either (or both) bounties. You can remain anonymous, if you so choose.
Once I receive this hardware, I will reverse engineer it and then post youtube videos describing what they're actually doing. That will give us the technical footing to logically discuss these products... knowledge beats speculation every time.

I will pay these bounties at my own cost. Nobody is paying me to do this. Information wants to be free.

 

I also offered, earlier, to examine a Signal Soother if somebody sends me one. But I didn't offer a bounty, so if you've got one to send, I'd say now mudder's got the sweeter deal.