2023 LE fwd mpg, what are you getting?

If they had a diesel mild hybrid option, they could build 120 of those with the same amount of batteries.

Toyota has to worry about where to use their battery supplies, because they didn't invest into their supply chains for them. Lack of batteries didn't keep the Model Y from outselling the Corolla globally. If Toyota had taken the same stance to batteries back when the gen2 Prius came out as they did for plug ins, they wouldn't be able to make those 90 Prius today.

 

The supply chance for critical minerals Co Mn Li Cu Nd etc are still dominated by China. Korea and Japan also have some contributions.
USA should increase the supply chains and may start produce the minerals domestically too.

Chinese manufacturers are not like Japan or Korea. Honda in early 70s produces more cars in USA and imported back to Japan. Something that Chinese CCP never share values with western point of view. We share our wealth and make others living conditions better.

 

Typr of Power plant should be considered too. We still need fosil fuel if we don't want our economy crippled. Off course we should have carbon and toxic particulate capture on any fossil fuel type power plant.
In facts, small modular reactor SMR is already available and some countries already run them. It is very safe and produce no toxic emission. Offcourse, we must deal the waste later and we already know how to do that. Build it in scale and fast deployments are possible. The cost and benefit is about 300% electricity production on what we invested. The study reported average capital cost of $3,782/kW, average operating cost total of $21/MWh and levelized cost of electricity of $60/MWh. Off course, it is still more expensive than any coal or gas power plant at today price.

The BIG Potential for Nuclear Microreactors | Department of Energy

 

Well since I last posted back in September on page 6 of this thread, I filled up with a tank average of 65.5 mpg (9/15 tank) with some decent effort into getting good MPG and then basically gave up trying to get good MPGs on the next tank.
Even driving like I was in an Altima with the front bumper missing, I still managed well over 50 mpg on the last tank (I think computer was at 53.8 mpg for the tank) in the cold with lots of full throttle and idling to defrost the windows.

Was interesting going back to driving this car like a little sports car. Fun as hell and good to know I still get pretty amazing fuel economy even when driving it like a rental car.

I think I'll stick to "normal" driving through the winter and maybe pick a tank in the spring to go for the Preebee record! For me 70 mpg for a tank would be very easy if I had some longer trips to do on back roads. My commute is 10 mi each way which just kills economy.

 

We share our wealth? Tell that to any of the so-called Banana Republics or other 3rd world countries that the US has held under our extraction model for the past 200 years. We most certainly do NOT share our wealth. We got rich from extracting resources from poorer nations under duress.

I agree that producing minerals domestically is ideal but that is predicated on the US HAVING those minerals. Turns out they are rare earth for a a reason. Though lithium has been successfully mined from alkaline flats now and there are lots of those in the western US.

 

The problem with a hybrid diesel is that it is still a diesel. Getting them up to gasoline emissions is both expensive and problematic.

Looking it up, Toyota offers a mild hybrid diesel HiLux in Europe for the new model year but it only provides a 5% estimated efficiency boost. Seems hardly worth the effort and cost.

 

Well done! You can definitely beat my record with a Prime.

 

Rare earth minerals aren't rare, just spread out a lot.

And batteries don't use them. Some motors do in the magnets, but we can trade efficiency to not use them, or develop permanent magnet motors that don't need them. Which is being done.

Can an early emission control gas car meet today's emission limits? It took decades for gas cars to get as clean as they are. That tech can give diesels a head start, but not negate the need for time to make improvements, which is happening.

What is the cost? Toyota hasn't released the price or mpg numbers for the full hybrid Tacoma yet, but Toyota's full hybrid system adds about $3000. A mild hybrid system adds somewhere in the range of $800 to $1200.

My comment wasn't about costs though. It was a counter to Toyota's false claim about limited battery supplies in regards to reducing carbon emissions. If there truly is a finite supply of batteries, building mild diesel hybrids will reduce emissions more than a smaller number of full gas hybrids, and even fewer plug ins.

 

Couple of points. Rare earth metals are rare if they are not easily obtainable (spread out for example) and batteries DO use rare earth metals. Not to the same extent as some motors but they are used. And lithium is (so far) problematic for supply chains for a variety of reasons.

Emissions in gas cars and diesels are not entirely comparable. In diesels it's particulate that is a big problem and that tech isn't well developed at all. Adds a lot of cost and complexity. Isn't so far effective enough. Diesel is being banned all over the place due to the very real problems with air pollution. Problems that might be solved in 20 years but have already been solved in gas engines so there isn't the same urgency.

Cost for a mild hybrid may not be different than that for the full hybrid. A hybrid system costs about 2k more than the non-hybrid Camry/Corolla/Rav4 and has a payback period in the range of a few years. The mild hybrid's cost is likely to be similar for a variety of reasons, certainly that has been the case in other cars, and at a paltry 5% efficiency gain the payback period is likely the life of the car, assuming there IS a payback period. Mild hybrids haven't enjoyed the same reliability as the Toyota systems (though to be fair that may be due to the manufacturer and the Toyota version could be as reliable).

The drawbacks to the mild hybrid systems have not endeared them to the public the same way that full hybrids do.

As for Toyota's claims about battery capacity, I'm not sure that is false. Providing several million smaller batteries is a much more effective use of the technology than providing a few hundred thousand large batteries. Until supply chain can provide enough batteries to ensure full scale production of EVs I think Toyota's strategy is a winning one. I would love to have a full EV Toyota but until it is far better than the recent choices I'll keep my hybrids.

 

Mild hybrid is a fancier Start and Stop with larger Add on 48V Li battery. It is connected mainly via alternator and belt. A very crude way to add 1-3 mpg in city. It is a joke for me because it is so popular in EU that all Mazda, Hyundai, Suzuki model have mild hybrid. VW chose to go with small turbo engines instead.

 

What battery is using rare earth metals? I'm only finding a LFP starter battery that adds yttrium(don't confuse with ytterbium) to the mix. Spark plugs can contain more rare earth metal than an EV battery. Some sources conflate rare earth metals with EV batteries because of their use in motors.

The main concern with lithium seems to be in the fact that China is the largest refiner. They had the foresight to invest big into batteries and EVs. It's why the Li-ion chemistry that eliminates the problematic cobalt, LFP, is mostly made by Chinese companies, and why the likely replacement and reducer of lithium use in batteries, Na-ion, will likely be dominated by them.

Right they aren't comparable. It's why the EU had separate regulations for them. A gasoline car probably wouldn't pass the diesel carbon monoxide limits on diesels there. The US decided to hold diesel cars to the exact same limits as gasoline ones after decades of effectively no regulation. We didn't start at these limits in the 1970s for gas cars, why should we be surprised diesels would have issues.

Meanwhile, the EPA ignores particulate emissions from gas cars. Many would require an exhaust filter if diesel rules were applied to them. The smaller size could mean they are a bigger public health problem. DPFs do work. Cars with them can have zero soot in the tailpipe, and measurements show the gases coming out is cleaner of particles than the ambient air. Maintenance has been issue with some, but that could have been solved be replaceable filters. Regulators wanted something that was service free though.

ICE vehicles are being banned in a lot of places. Older cars are a big source of pollution for their numbers in the fleet. This true more so for diesels as they generally have longer service life while having laxer emission limits in the past. then governments have been less likely to close loopholes for business interests. The US had the glider rule for commercial trucks. That new truck you see on the road could have an engine and emission system that is a couple decades old.

The price difference for Toyotas is relatively recent. It was just a few years ago when it was $3000 for the Camry and Corolla. The Rav4 was once under $1000, but only in the US. Here they pay for the hybrid system by not having a 2WD option; the cost of AWD helps cover the difference. The hybrid option adds about $3500US to the base Australian FWD Rav4. It would take 140k miles to cover that in fuel costs.

Mild hybrid development and regulations have reached the point that they are becoming standard equipment, which makes comparisons difficult. The big sellers in the US are the eTorque Ram trucks and Jeeps, and it is included on the base engine. Looks like the Hilux mild diesel hybrid is mated to the larger 2.8L, and the trims with it(I think, not if these markets got it yet it) in Australia have it as the only option. Can choose it or the 2.4L on the UK site. there the mild hybrid appears to be $400US more. Toyota USA doesn't have Tacoma hybrid pricing out yet.

It is that lower cost that could mean a greater carbon reduction from the fleet, as it means mild hybrids can be the standard option for all.

They aren't false in direct numbers, but really only matter if battery supply is restricted. These studies were done several years ago under assumption that we couldn't ramp up Li-ion production. We have; lithium prices were actually down last year. Tesla and other car companies that made the investments didn't seem to have a problem meeting their EV demand.

Toyota had planned for slower adoption of plug ins, so hadn't made the investments. They could have sold a lot more Rav4 Primes if they had the batteries. For them the battery math applies, but the supply restriction is one imposed on themselves. If there was a truly was limit from the outside, and they wanted to get the most carbon reductions with that limited supply, they'd be making more mild hybrids, diesel and gas, than making full hybrids.

It also allows regen braking, which can be a big efficiency boost in the city. The Mazda6 with i-Eloop regen brakes got a 2mpg boost to EPA city without start/stop.

Belt driven is crude, but easy to add, thus the lower costs. It is also just the first gen of 48V systems. Development is to have the starter/generator mated more closely to the drive train. Such as between the engine and transmission like the old Honda IMA. the entire drive train will be designed with the hybrid system in mind. Instead of just adding it to an existing ICE one.

VW uses 48V hybrids. It's in the eTSI models. I thought they were one of the main companies developing 48V systems. There is a tendency to not use hybrid in some marketing because of past connotations.

 

Gasoline cars have controlled carbon monoxide emissions for decades. It is effectively zero. And the timeline is meaningless, we are where we are, maybe if auto manufacturers hadn't spent the last 50 years fighting diesel emissions we wouldn't be in this position but they DID so we are. I have no sympathy and I'm not willing to kill millions of more people while they figure it out. Before you get all gushy about DPF systems you should spend some time talking to owners. They are HATED almost universally because they are 1) extremely expensive to install and maintain 2) extremely unreliable adding to point 1 and 3) being deleted by many shops bringing back the main problems of pollution. I concede that a functional DPF diesel has fewer particulate emissions than a gas engine. Key point being functional.

As for mild hybrid systems, they don't add that much beyond start/stop (which I concede is a pretty big benefit in some vehicles) since they are incapable of moving the car in most instances. In the synergy drive the biggest benefit is the use of the electric motor to get the vehicle moving and recapturing energy from braking. A mild hybrid system doesn't offer those benefits. Adding 1-2 mpg to an Mazda6 is a pretty poor return on investment. And you have to ask if that is going to be offset by cost, weight, and complexity. It may even REDUCE economy at highway speeds due to drag. The Honda IMA was certainly interesting but not cost effective.

The benefit of the synergy drive is that it simplified the drive train. Removing the traditional automatic transmission greatly improved the efficiency and reliability of the system.

 

On release, the Volt didn't qualify for CARB incentives because its CO emissions were too high for the cleanest bin.

The EU is now enforcing particle limits on gas cars. So they will also facing the same issues if they can't lower them without a filter.

Biodiesel and other renewable drop replacements may prove to be easier than renewable gasoline.

The Mazda6 just added a 25W supercapacitor in terms of big additions. highway also went up 2mpg, but that was more from the auto grill shutters.

Mild hybrids also add regen braking, or we already have a whole lot of mild hybrids already on the road.

Hybrids improve fuel economy by limiting the periods of time the engine isn't running efficiently. Most of the improvements to the Prius efficiency through the years came from more efficient engines. Improvements to the electrical side focused more on reducing costs. Full hybrids can do more to helping out the engine, but that comes at the cost of needing more powerful motors and bigger batteries.

No body is claiming a mild system will return the direct levels of improvement as a full system. Just the possibility from fielding more of them because costs or part supplies could yield a bigger benefit to the fleet.

The mechanical reliability. Toyota has had issues arising from software and electrical components.

Automatic transmissions are quite reliable. If AAMCO had stuck to just servicing transmissions, they'd be out of business.

 

Toyota hybrids are consistently the most reliable vehicles in Consumer Reports annual reports. They are usually MORE reliable than their non-hybrid versions. Early Synergy drives had issues with inverters (my 2008 HyHi was recalled for this issue) but the electrical and software side has been pretty stellar in the Toyota hybrids.

TOYOTA automatics are pretty reliable comparatively but that is not the case in the rest of the automotive world. Automatic transmissions have a well deserved reputation for expensive repairs. The migration to CVTs has not improved their record either. No transmission service company I know is wanting for work. YouTube is awash with transmission failure videos. Eliminating that part is a huge reduction in unreliability.

 

Toyota once recalled 73% of the Prii sold in the US over a stalling issue involving faulty electrical components, and there have been additional ones over software.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a23610520/toyota-recall-prius-stalling-airbag/
Toyota Prius Family Sales Figures | US Car Sales Figure
Toyota Prius and Prius V Recalled | Lose Power - Consumer Reports

How much of that work actually transmission.
"Owing in part to the increased reliability of automatic transmissions, and thus the lengthened repair cycle, in the mid-2000s, the company rebranded to AAMCO Transmissions and Total Car Care." AAMCO Transmissions - Wikipedia

And Priuschat is awash with problems with the car.

Yet Toyota Toyota stuck with them in the Tundra, Tacoma, and Sequoia full hybrids.

 

wait till you guys try hyundais dual clutch transmissions for their hybrids lolol

 

That bad?

 

The issue with AAMCO is that if your business model is saturation of the market for dominance you will HAVE to branch out at some point. This is true for every chain. While it is true that automatics are more reliable than 50 years ago that is also true of every other part of the car with the exception of infotainment systems, which are universally crappy.

Toyota still uses them in their trucks because that is the better solution for that type of vehicle.

The problem with Prischat is that it is the textbook example of a biased sample. Of course it is awash with people with problems, that is part of the point of a chat room.

 

Omg people. This is a fuel economy thread now a discussion on the philosophy of transmissions and natural resources...

 

mines failing on a 2019 car. 12k dollars in repair they quoted