1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Yes! Somebody is scaling up thermal batteries!

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Dec 17, 2023.

  1. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    I've been wondering about this one for a while, and I know we've discussed it in a few threads here.

    Not enough of an engineer to develop it myself, in a different business etc. so I'm really happy that somebody else is doing this.

    CNN link: thermal battery developers in California

     
    #1 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Dec 17, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2023
  2. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I wonder if heat pumps and geothermal will continue to be better than these methods? It's interesting to see this idea, but there's no real hard numbers in the article, more of a fluff piece without industry analysis of viability.
     
  3. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    Heat pumps and geothermal are ways to move energy around.

    Thermal batteries are a way to store energy. I've made the argument before (elsewhere on this site) that if your generation cost is low enough, just buffer all that energy as heat in rocks. You can use that heat to make steam and run traditional turbines or possibly do other neat stuff with it.

    It's much less efficient than using the electricity directly, but that's fine because it doesn't force you to schedule your loads for when the sun is shining- which makes it much more valuable.

    You just use whatever sunlight you have, whenever you happen to get it to heat rocks, while using the rocks to make steam for a turbine running at whatever duty is needed for the current load.

    You can think of it as man-made geothermal, if that helps.
     
  4. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Yes, but Geothermal is based on the harvest of heat that has been stored in earth's core for billions of years.

    Why waste money on a box to store heat when an unlimited supply is already being stored under your feet?
     
    rjparker likes this.
  5. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,609
    1,624
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    If a good chunk of your solar electricity is being wasted 6 hours a day but you have inadequate power the rest of the day there is potential to use your excess power to superheat water or supercool your home (weather allowing)

    This “ thermal technology “ is available to anyone with a hot water heater or live in a region where you need to heat or cool a house, overheat/overcool and shut off at peak
    bleeding off / using your stored thermal energy until excess power becomes available.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,660
    15,661
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2018 Tesla Model 3
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Phase change heat storage has history. But bulk heat storage ... not so much because of the huge mass needed. I would rather have an insulated tank of paraffin, 136.4 kJ/kg, than a tank of any non-phase change substance.

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Last year's Christmas gift to the brother was a thermos that made use of phase changing paraffin to cool scalding drinks, and then keep them warm.

    Took a bit to refind the brand.
    BURNOUT Mugs – Temperature Regulating Travel Mug
     
    #7 Trollbait, Dec 18, 2023
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2023
  8. Rmay635703

    Rmay635703 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2016
    2,609
    1,624
    0
    Location:
    Somewhere in Wisconsin
    Vehicle:
    2013 Chevy Volt
    Model:
    N/A
    Hmm, no dimensions on the 16oz, it looks like it wouldn’t fit my cup holder
     
  9. ColoradoBoo

    ColoradoBoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2019
    1,042
    682
    4
    Location:
    Monument, Colorado USA
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Seems to me thermonuclear energy is, by far, the cleanest energy we can produce. (At least until the hydrogen engine comes further along.)
     
    Rmay635703 likes this.
  10. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    While Fusion is still a ways out, the existing fission based systems only are affordable if you don't do cradle-to-grave whole cost accounting because the additional billions of dollars just to decommission a nuclear power plant and safely store all that nuclear waste (which the US still doesn't have a long term storage facility for) is by far the most expensive of energy generation there is.

    At this point the promise of building more nuke plants is just a way the energy industry gets billions of dollars up front to build something that will never be completed due to "unexpected costs overuns." Even the mini-nuke plant projects are getting canceled because of the dishonesty of this con game.
     
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    The thermonuclear energy that we can produce today, produces and scatters huge amounts of radioactive fallout.

    The fusion energy we can produce two decades from now (or two decades from 2000, or from 1980, or from 1960, or ...) is still hypothetical. On the current paths, it won't be clean, just much less dirty than today's fission. Those released neutrons that escape the reaction will react with the containment vessel, turning it into eventual hazardous waste.

    Hydrogen engines are already excellent. It is the hydrogen fuel supply that is the very major obstacle.
     
    ColoradoBoo likes this.
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,447
    11,760
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
  13. PriusCamper

    PriusCamper Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2012
    11,330
    4,614
    0
    Location:
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Future generations are gonna have it so much better than all this awful stupid we're living with right now! So sick and tired of the fossil fool industry being in complete control of all the world's governments. Those criminals trying to suffocate the world to make themselves rich stole over $7 Trillion in subsidies from governments in 2022 and 2023 looks to set be even bigger: Fossil Fuel Subsidies Hit Record $7 Trillion In 2022 – International Monetary Fund - Health Policy Watch
     
  14. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2018
    7,427
    6,913
    1
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius c
    Model:
    Two
    If it's really under your feet, start drilling.

    What's that? You'd rather go someplace where only need to drill 200' instead of 10,000'? Is that closer to where you'll use the resulting power? Oh. And you don't already own that land?

    That's where this system works. You can put it anywhere solar already works, but gain the advantage of storage.
     
    Trollbait likes this.
  15. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    While estimates vary significantly, what I'm seeing suggests that more of it is likely radiogenic than primordial. From radioactive decay of various elements after Earth's formation.

    That 'unlimited' supply is limited to about 70mW/m^2 over average continental crust, or about 50 watts over my entire suburban home lot. And it is has a very low average temperature differential from it to my local atmosphere or any likely radiative cooling panels at night, so energy extraction efficiency for use as a prime mover is horribly low. Boring deeper holes to warmer zones is very expensive. Surface trenching depth is cost-limited by OSHA safety requirements for shoring up trench walls when digging deeper than 5 feet.

    So for the vast vast majority of us, geothermal simply cannot be not a primary energy source, just a low grade heat source for heat pumps driven by high grade energy from some other source. And for most of us, outdoor air-source evaporators are much cheaper than all the ground excavation work needed for a ground source heat collector.

    Earth's internal heat budget - Wikipedia
    Geothermal gradient - Wikipedia