Unanswered questions about new Prius

Yup. I posted coming from a thread on 4th gen active grill shutter problems, started wondering if it might be another “one generation experiment”.

 

I'd move.

 

I get that a lot. But where?

I was wanting to buy a home and almost could have before Covid. But that idea has now gone out the window. Besides, what's the point. By the time I finish paying it off we'd both be 80.

Just finding a place to rent around here is practically impossible at any price point, let alone one that would let me do things like install a solar panel and heat pump and EVSE. I can guarantee we won't find anything for less than double what we're paying now for rent. And having only one income in the family doesn't make such a change easy.

So we could move out of town. But where and why? I got a good deal on my rent here, very probably the best in the whole town. It may not be saving the planet, but where do you draw the line? Gas to heat and cook is only $65 per month average now that prices have gone up. I was paying less than $50 before for the past 12 years we've lived in this rental. And that's without any government help or anything. Keeping the thermostat down low does help though.

 

Cars were using active grill shutters before the gen4 came out. I know the Mazda6 got them with the i-Eloop braking system. The Cruze, Malibu, Colorado, and Ram pick ups were getting them around 2014. I don't think you could call them new technology by the time the gen4 came out.

 

I found on both my 2012 Prius IV and our new Camry, that I get optimum mileage at 68 miles per hour on a somewhat hilly interstate/turnpike. If I tried to drive slower over the same roads, my mileage dropped. If I drove even 2 mph faster, it dropped more dramatically. For the 2 cars with which I personal experience, there is a "sweet spot." Oh, and our Camry LOVES it when I use cruise control and lane assist and rewards me with an extra mile per gallon. I live in the Flint Hills of eastern Kansas, so hilly isn't a problem.

 

That's interesting that you could narrow it down to a single MPH, although I am currious of how much testing you did. I'm a bit skeptical of best fuel mileage at such high speeds seeing how energy per mile lost to air drag increases by the power of 2 in relation to velocity.

I always thought 55mph to 65mph was the sweet spot, but I haven't thoroughly tested that. Maybe it is 68mph.

I can attest to hilly roads increasing fuel mileage. My observation is that it allows the car to automatically pulse and glide.

If you pulse and glide on purpose at slower speeds you can get even better fuel mileage. I find at 35mph I can get up to 90mpg in the Avalon if I pulse and glide very carefully.

 

This is not correct with a hybrid car. Hybrid cars are EVs that run the ICE near maximum efficiency at most driving conditions. With a BEV, slower you drive, more mpg you get because the drag force monotonously increases with speed. In fact, mpge will be inversely proportional to this drag force, as energy is force times distance and therefore energy per distance (kWh per mile or gallon equivalent per mile) is force. Drag force vs. speed looks like this:

Tesla has been cheating EPA on mpge and range numbers | Page 3 | PriusChat



So, again, for a BEV, mpge will be inversely proportional to that drag force and therefore monotonously decrease with speed. An HEV should be similar. I get over 120 mpg with my 2021 Prius Prime PHEV in the HEV mode in freeway stop-and-go traffic for example.

As far as the nonhybrid Camry is concerned, yes, there will be an optimal speed that maximizes mpg, which is a compromise between higher drag force and higher ICE efficiency as the speed increases. 68 mph sounds way too high though. Consumer Reports found that 55 mph is a lot more efficient than 65 mph for both Altima and RAV4:

How to get the best fuel economy now—Consumer Reports

 

Sorry this is so ugly -- I'm so new here that it wouldn't take the link.

The Camry is a hybrid (I thought I went back and put that in, but I guess it didn't take). I know it defies logic. I guess that was my point. The illogic of it is obvious. It is just my experience with two different hybrids using the cruise control on the same roads. My question to you is, did you try it? Just for kicks? I'd like some real world comparisons to my VERY unscientific test.

 

i got 54 mpg at 57mph on our new hycam. when i have time, i'll try 68 and report back.

 

I do know I get worse fuel mileage (cruise control on, flat ground) at 45mph than at 55mph in the hybrid Avalon, which is similar to the Camry, so I'm not saying you're wrong or at least not far from the absolute bonified truth.

I'm not sure that statement is 100% correct. Yes, they do run more efficiently than a typical ICE car at slower speeds. But I wouldn't go as far to say that they're as good as BEV's in this regard.

If we're talking about just setting the cruise control on flat pavement then a typical hybrid is going to do one of two things:

1. If it's going slow enough it will run in EV mode for a while then swtich back to ICE mode and charge up the battery a little and then keep switching back and forth like that.
2. If it's going fast enough it will stay in ICE mode. Once the battery is "full enough" it will keep using the engine at a set load that will be determined by the speed (if the set speed is faster the engine will be under higher load.

If we analize both of these conditions we find that going slower than highway speeds is still less than optimal. If it's #1 then charging and discharging the battery adds more energy loss, albeit for an increase in engine efficiency due to it running at a higher load than it would if just geared to the wheels through a transmission. And if it's #2, then there will be a vehicle speed at which the engine is at it's optimal load for efficiency. Anything more or less than that speed will mean the engine's load will be less than optimal, just like in a traditional non-hybrid ICE vehicle.

On the other hand, typically if you're driving slower you are city driving. In city driving it's much easier for the car to follow almost a pulse-and-glide pattern as the person speeds up and then slows back down time and time again. Of course they will likely not truely be "gliding" in basically neutral when slowing down, but still, it is similar and the regenerative braking, though less efficient than gliding in neutral, is still more efficient than friction braking.

 

Is called BZ3, is very well priced and the first delivery to owners already began.
Motors and batteries from BYD (blades).
Unfortunately China-only.

Toyota bZ3 with BYD inside rolled off the production line in China. Starts at 27,400 USD


Toyota's first electric sedan, the bZ3, sold 2,342 units in the first month after launching in China

 

yeah, that's a winner in n/a, more proof toyota isn't interested yet

 

Indeed.
I've read some few things about Toyota Japaneses technicians interacting with the Chinese from BYD on the BZ3 FAW-Toyota project. It was very funny, the Japaneses went in a bit of a crisis due to the extreme speed the Chinese were going in doing things
And they were really impressed by their technology.

In actual fact, I think BYD is the New Toyota.
I see ugly times ahead for them. Their corporate culture, that made their success, is backfiring, inadequate to these times.

 

I am sure Toyota knows what they are doing. You should realize that it is not easy to sell an EV with Chinese batteries and motors in the US, especially given the current tensions between the US and China. In the US, EVs need to have US-made batteries and assembled in the US to qualify for substantial federal tax credits. Toyota is taking all these into consideration before they start mass-selling BEVs in the US. It will happen but not now.

Despite the high gas prices, EV sales in the US have been losing steam and saturating anyway, and there is no reason for Toyota to rush.



https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2023/07/14/ev-sales-dropping-cox-automotive-says/70411020007/

 

Most Americans don’t care where something is made, they care about price and quality

 

The US is just the #3 market for EVs. What Toyota does here isn't much indication on their EV intentions. However, what they have done elsewhere has not been much more impressive. Their EV offerings have not been compelling when compared to the competition. The BZ3 is, but its battery and EV drive train come from BYD. It is as much a Toyota EV as the Tesla converted Rav4 was.

Toyota seems to have realized their mistake with EVs. Between limited materials for EVs now, and the US market position, we likely likely won't see much from them.

 

if they like the byd quality, they may continue to grow it while working out their supply chain.

 

It is bZ3, not BZ3.

 

But the price depends on the federal tax credit, which in turn depends on where the car and battery are made because of the Inflation-Reduction Act.

 

But Tesla sell the standard range with LFP chinese Catl battery in the US, without tax credit of course.