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Manmade Global Warming

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jul 11, 2023.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    [​IMG]

    Source: UAH - News

    A research paper finding a significant global warming bias in climate models that was co-authored by the interim vice president for research and economic development at The University of Alabama in Huntsville (UAH) has been cited by John Wiley & Sons Inc. as a top 10 download over the past 12 months in the American Geophysical Union (AGU) Earth and Space Science journal.
    ...
    “So, what drives the interest here is the incessant drumbeat of climate doom and gloom based on model forecasts, and the corresponding political reactions that create for us challenges like $100 per fill-up and attendant price increases – and some scarcity – for everything else,” says Dr. John Christy, who is also a distinguished professor of atmospheric science, Alabama’s state climatologist and the director of the Earth System Science Center (ESSC) at UAH, a part of the University of Alabama System. “When an issue hits people squarely in the pocketbook, it becomes important.”

    “Pervasive Warming Bias in CMIP6 Tropospheric Layers” was co-authored by Dr. Ross McKitrick, an econometrician at the University of Guelph in Guelph, Ontario, Canada.

    Bob Wilson
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The bias of these models is known.
    "Recently, a number of studies have tried to address the reliability of higher sensitivity models. Two studies – one by Femke Nijsse and colleagues at the University of Exeter and another by Dr Katarzyna Tokarska and colleagues at ETH Zurich – point out that the highest sensitivity models do a poor job of reproducing historical temperatures, either showing no 20th-century warming and too-rapid recent warming, or too much overall warming. They suggest that historical temperatures can serve as an emergent constraint to help rule out the new very-high sensitivity estimates.

    On the other hand, some researchers have argued that natural variability has helped produce a pattern of warming in recent years that leads to lower global temperatures than would otherwise have occurred, making it challenging to use observed warming to constrain future projections. "
    https://www.carbonbrief.org/cmip6-the-next-generation-of-climate-models-explained/

    The OT paper is looking at 1979 to 2019, and finds the model lines up well in the beginning, but then diverges from historical records after about 15 years, though there is still that upward trend in both. That is for the mean of multiple model runs. The above link has a graph of the model runs average that lines up well with the record, but that record is also a different data set than the OT study used.

    These sources are from a few years ago. There will be more runs of the model to contribute to this mean/average since then.

    The model, cmip6 - Home | ESGF-CoG
    CMIP6 Homepage
    Actual OT paper, https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2020EA001281#
    Final note, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Econometrics
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    About those claiming a bias in the climate models:

    "You're either part of the solution or you're part of the problem." - Eldridge Cleaver

    Because Prius owners were and are accused of being "greenies," I paid for the book and took an online course to understand what the heck this former Prius owner was being accused of. I knew from the 1960s Venus satellites about CO{2} and planet killing, solar warming to ~900 F (475 C).

    I don't fault those who offer counter claims about man made global warming. After all, I bought my past Prius because I am 'Yankee Greenback Dollar' cheap. That Greenback dollar is why I moved to a Tesla that I just completed an 850 mi trip from Florida coming $78.60. But I have paid to learn about man made global warming.

    It is going to take some hard, from your fingers, data to even begin to make a credible argument. I don't discuss with 3d parties who are not here.

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    yeah, the arguments aren't working on the general populace, and only on some governments.

    even when it hits pocketbooks, people won't believe it because of the alternate twitter universe
     
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  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    We have a climate model. It is fed the variables of a past time period. The temperature results from this simulation are compared to what was actually recorded. Some of these simulation runs are close the historical record, some lower, but the average/median was warmer. By warmer, the model showed a 0.1 degree Celsius increase over the actual warming over the 20 year span in question.

    The historical data used clearly shows a warming trend. The paper talks not of man made global warming. It is only showing that these simulations do over estimate temperature increases.

    Could this paper be spun by parties that want to down play or deny man made global warming? Yes, the co-author might even be one of them. That doesn't discount the fact that the model results are off from real world results.

    The mpg results used for CAFE aren't wrong, but they aren't very useful for predicting what the car's fuel economy will actually be on the road. This hindcasting with climate models shows that their future predictions could be off. We can acknowledge this with the results, actively adjust the results like window sticker mpg(some already are, https://www.nature.com/articles/s41597-021-01079-3), figure why the model is making the over estimation to fix it, but we can't ignore that the results can be off.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I knew of 17 simulations when I took my training course:

    But the United Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change simply averages up the 29 major climate models to come up with the forecast for warming in the 21st century, a practice rarely done in operational weather forecasting. Nations' Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change simply averages up the 29 major climate models to come up with the forecast for warming in the 21st century, a practice rarely done in operational weather forecasting.

    So which one(s) are bad?

    Bob Wilson
     
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Not bad. Possibly overestimating future warming.

    Name in title of paper, and I linked its home page earlier.
     
  8. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    There may be among many climate models, one that exactly matches 1850 through 2023 earth surface temperatures. Sorry, I don't know, and would not be able to do much with that information. There are certainly models that run too hot or too cold, or miss decadal dynamics.

    There is a whale in the room so to speak. Oceans have quasi-periodical patterns. Water movements carry heat movements, and that's where most of the outgoing energy goes after being denied exit by IR-absorbing gas increases.

    We still don't know the sloshes in full detail. We certainly don't know much about those sloshes from 1850 until TOGAs and other ocean devices became many.

    It's nice, I guess, that climate models do as well as they do. If one can hindcast timing and magnitude of ENSO cycles, please tell me of it. Until then, well, my attention will be elsewhere.

    ==
    Since early 1970s, earth surface temperature has increased each decade, quite linearly. It was not like that earlier. The CO2 increase may have been too small, or ocean sloshes kept new heat out of view. We seem to be in a new mode now, according to some real oceanographers (not only me :) ).

    CO2 additions to the atmosphere will continue for a few more decades I suppose, even though government pledges have been made. So, I expect decadal +T to continue at very similar rates. Those will have effects, and that topic is where I pay more attention to related modeling.

    ==
    After CO2 reaches peak (500? 550? ppm), it will hold there or maybe begin decreasing because of various efforts. That is the future I'd like to be informed about by climate models. Just wake me up when such models arrive.
     
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    In fact, many of the models are designed for specific, regional issues that are important to the sponsors: For example, a country dependent on one region for growing food doesn't really care about their model accuracy of distant areas. Others may want flood control and population growth. So locally accurate is often more important than glaciers a continent away. But how extreme can these critics be:

    Skeptic arguments matching the search climate model accuracy:
    Arctic was warmer in 1940
    BEST hides the decline in global temperature
    CO2 effect is saturated
    DMI show cooling Arctic
    Glaciers are growing
    Increasing CO2 has little to no effect
    IPCC admits global warming has paused
    It's the sun
    Models are unreliable
    UAH atmospheric temperatures prove climate models and/or surface temperature data sets are wrong

    Notice that some skeptics claim the exact opposite of observation such has "DMI show cooling Arctic." Fortunately, the source I use does a critical analysis of these often narrow claims, Skeptical Science. So why do I care?

    A prominent climate denier, lives in Huntsville and works for University of Alabama Huntsville (UAH):

    John R. Christy is the Distinguished Professor of Atmospheric Science and Director of the Earth System Science Center at The University of Alabama in Huntsville .

    He is also The Alabama Office of the State Climatologist

    Dr. John R. Christy. It is the role of the Office of State Climatology to provide weather and climate information to the public and private interests.

    I have a more relaxed opinion about climate denial ... Mother Nature Doesn't Care. I don't care that much either as the physics and chemistry of man made CO{2} remains as real as lead melts on Venus. Rather, I am a "Greenback Yankee Dollar" parsimonious person (i.e., cheap.)

    I've long since narrowed my climate interest to satellite observations of polar ice, overall decreasing, and sea level, overall rising. Both are subject to local variations that unethical people have and will claim proves there is no global warming. Including a fabled king in England:

    [​IMG]

    Today, Cnut is remembered primarily for the fable about the king and the sea. This asserts that King Cnut sat on the seashore and tried to command the tide not to touch his feet, yet the sea ignored him.

    A funny thing is those who deny manmade global warming seem to be unreliable in other empirical areas too. Regardless, there is a Nobel Prize awaiting the climate denier who shows CO{2} has no thermal properties affecting planetary temperatures. ... Go For It ... without me.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Jul 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: ‘Cascading impacts’ warning as Farmers becomes latest insurer to quit Florida | Florida | The Guardian

    Farmers Insurance became the latest property insurer to pull out of Florida on Tuesday despite repeated efforts by the state’s legislature and its Republican governor, Ron DeSantis, to try to calm the volatile market that is making home ownership less affordable.

    Farmers informed the state that it was discontinuing new coverage of auto, home and umbrella policies. The company said in a statement that the decision would affect policies issued through its “exclusive agency distribution channel”. It said there would be no effect on 70% of current policies in Florida.

    ... The legislature has grappled with the issue each of the last two years, including a special session in December.

    Most of the focus has been on shielding insurance companies from lawsuits and setting aside money for re-insurance to help protect insurers. The state’s insurance regulation office sent a letter to Farmers responding to the notice that it does not plan to write new policies.

    So if individuals and companies can not get auto or building insurance, can anyone afford to live in Florida? Or anywhere else?

    Lamentations about climate models and advocacy means nothing when Muther Nature picks your pocket.

    Bob Wilson
     
  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    the future is unknown. right now, florida is less expensive than many other areas, and it's not all coastal.
    only time will tell
     
  12. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    If good actuaries are setting the premiums, you should expect your costs to be comparable with and without insurance, over a long enough time.

    Lumpier without insurance though.
     
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  14. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Not quite that simple.
    States have gotten involved and made certain requirements, which in this time of increasing disaster costs, means insurance companies loose money on new policies. As such, they stop writing new policies.

    Here is a good discussion on it. https://www.axios.com/2023/06/06/climate-change-homeowners-insurance-state-farm-california-florida

    From the article:

     
  15. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Well, I did say "If good actuaries are setting the premiums".

    If somebody else is setting them, not quite that simple.
     
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  16. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    "CO2 effect is saturated"

    Thanks for walk down Memory Lane. I picked my favorite, and invite you to Superior Street in Lincoln Nebraska. There you will find a company called LICOR and we can sweet-talk our way into factory tour. We will see one of these

    Licor optical bench.PNG
    this optical path is 10 cm long and can accurately measure [CO2] up to 20,000 ppm. That simply could not be done if CO2 absorbance became saturated. It is a triumph of reality, even if some are motivated to stay behind. For whatever reason.

    A shorter, 2-cm optical path can be installed if one wants to discern even higher CO2 concentrations. It's all reality, and a very satisfying place to walk.
     
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  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I have been 'day dreaming' about a solar concentrator to a steel pipe connected to a piston engine:
    • Forced ambient air flushes into a cylinder.
    • Cylinder compresses 8-15 times and exhausts air, one-way valve, into high pressure hose.
    • Compressed air enters a steel pipe with an inner pipe so the air passes twice through the pipe.
    • Pipe is at the focal point of a large linear, parabolic reflector, 1.5-2 m sun side, that tracks the sun.
      • The reflector ends are half parabolas but flat reflectors could also work.
      • For 1 m, the sun side would have 1 m**2 + .79 m**2 with pipe ends at highest temperature
      • Peak solar constant, 1.79 m**2 x 1370 W ~= 2.45 kW, 745 W ~= 1 hp
      • Solar collector pipe might have in a transparent cylinder to reduce convective losses
    • A measured quantity of solar heated air is valved into the cylinder now at peak dead center.
      • Electronic controlled, cylinder, hot air injection valve as this is the throttle.
      • Rigid, insulated, pressure pipe attached to piston engine.
    • Air expands as the piston travels down.
    • Hot air is exhausted away from engine (Up?)
    • Forced ambient air pushes last of it out and restarts the cycle.
    A 'poor man's' Sterling inspired engine, the cold air heat exchanger is the atmosphere. The hot air is the high pressure cylinder at the focal point. So how does this relate to CO{2}?

    Most Sterling engines use expensive helium as the working fluid with a gas tight, cold side heat exchanger. However, cheap CO{2} might be more efficient picking up heat from the focal point pipe. It would still require a cold sink heat exchanger. But the cold sink heat exchanger should have a second one located indoors. So in cold weather, we get space heating as well as mechanical or generator power.

    For the cheaper open air cycle, the exhaust air would exhaust into the house and/or pass through the combustion flu of a gas fired, water heater.

    The design goal would be generating 7.45 kW of power, enough for L2 electric car charging. Given at best a Carnot temperature difference efficiency of ~30%, it would require capture of ~25 m**2. So a 2.5 m width would require a 10 m run length. Not impossible but a substantial structure that could fit in my back yard. A modular design would allow scaling from smaller, experimental size to expandable structure as time and budget permits.

    Bob Wilson

    ps. On a cold, clear night, it could make cold air.
     
    #17 bwilson4web, Jul 12, 2023
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2023