Featured Toyota Says Public Charging Not Ready For Pure EVs

Stepping away from hard facts, I am a believer in what I've quoted here. I really think a PHEV Camry would have monster sales. I don't know trucks as well but I can easily believe there would be real demand for PHEV Tacoma and/or Tundra.

A PHEV Camry would be a brilliant fit for our family car. The Mazda we have now is used <15 miles per day on most days, and >350 on most of the exceptions.

The RAV4 Prime doesn't sound bad at first glance, but firstly we do not like SUVs, and secondly I think they pushed for too much EV range and too little 0-60 time, resulting in too big of a window sticker. Prius Prime is just too small.

 

Yup, don’t forget Tesla that built its own charging network, perhaps the biggest and fastest of them all.

i was almost persuaded by Toyota until you posed this question. It is obvious the network isnt where the average consumer would ideally like—especially a consumer without home charging—but change does not happen without action. Where are toyota’s actions?

Other companies acknowledge this but then try to improve the network. They show intent to electrify. But toyota does not…it does not have the intention to electrify that other companies have

 

I wasn't disagreeing that toyota should produce a phev midsize sedan. They actually could use the new prius prime to do it on, but make it more like a camry on the inside and bodywork. It wouldn't take much time to design. I think they need a redesign to hold the batteries. The problem is toyota did not plan to sell many phevs, so they don't have the batteries this year or next. I am hoping new management changes that. This talking point about infrastructure is pointing to the wrong one. It isn't the charging network that is a problem, that is growing fast. It is toyota that didn't build or have suppliers build the infrastructure to have enough batteries. If they were a fast moving company they could buy what others are buying and building, and that means they don't need 4 years to get new capacity. I think this is what they will be doing, but it likely requires a redesign of the packs and cooling.

The stealerships here at least want to only sell them loaded and with a $5K mark up. If they had more and were selling them at sticker then you might have a point. They are expensive because they aren't making many.

 

Toyoda got into the car business back in 1933. By that time, there was at least a 120k service stations in the US. Even if they were building cars back at the turn of that century, gasoline was a waste product from kerosene production, and could be gotten cheap from a local store.

Toyota did invest heavily into nickel extraction and production for their hybrid batteries.

Now a car company making plug ins today doesn't have to get into the public charger business for similar reasons. There is plenty of potential customers in which the fuel is already available. Tesla did it because they wanted to replace the ICE car, and not start with just commuters.

Toyota's first use of not a an energy company excuse was hydrogen though. A fuel less available than gasoline in the beginning. Yet Toyota really wanted to sell a hydrogen car instead of a plug in, but they didn't want to spend any of their money on the needed infrastructure. They aren't needed to build charging infrastructure, but are using the current state of the system as justification for not having a competitive BEV for sale, when that didn't stop them with hydrogen.

After some sake, I think Toyota will disagree with that statement. They thought/hoped the market adoption of EVs would be slower. They realized they made a mistake, and convened a special group, that only happens maybe once a decade, to decide upon a new course of action to catch up in regards to EVs. The change in leadership came from that group.

Before, actions like this paper were attempts to slow Ev adoption, now it is about lessening the criticism until progress comes comes from new plans.

The Bolt was a second generation BEV built on an old platform. It wasn't going to last past the current model. It was cancelled early so GM could convert the factory to making EV Silverados. The bZ4X is Toyota's first nationally available BEV in the US. With the changes going on at Toyota, there is a possibility it, and e-TNGA, won't last past this generation.

The Lyriq is the first model using a BEV platform and whole new EV architecture. Get the issues solved, and GM has a system that will allow a faster and cheaper adoption of BEV models. Honda was on the same path as Toyota, and will be using GM's hardware for their upcoming BEVs.

Some in the gen 5 area have been experiencing 'quality holds' themselves.

Toyota's views on EV adoption lead to them not securing battery supplies for the plug ins they do make. Sounds like they may not even be making enough for their hybrids. The Rav4 Prime isn't selling in lower numbers than the Prius because of a lack of interest. If they made a Camry Prime, you'd be driving the Mazda for another year or so waiting on delivery.

The Rav4P's 0-60 time is what it is because of that big battery.

Toyota makes great hybrids. That can mean great PHEVs, and people do want all the ones they do make. The bZ4X and siblings seems designed to meet the expectations Toyota published in that report though.

 

From the article, Toyota's memo - leaked to their dealerships shows Toyota doesn't really even prefer to build PHEV's. Their comparison of both PHEV's & EV's to hybrids, indicates their reasoning is that the extra battery elements can go a lot further because there's so much less of the batteries in hybrids (never mind the use of largerr volumes of non-renewable fuel that they must import).
Next - the Toyo memo talks about sourcing battery materials like Cobalt. Right .... its all about those ethically sourced traction pack components - & they are soooo concerned, & want to use as little as possible. Not too subtle a message - that they're virtue signaling.
Japan is short on many natural resources so most of their auto raw materials have to be brought in from somewhere else for manufacturing, whether it's Steel, aluminum, rubber, Etc.
Would Toyo find limiting production be a sound decision if their copper wiring came from questionable sourcing?
OR
Maybe they could step up to the plate & help solve those kinds of issues! Supposedly that's what corporate governance is all about?
.

 

Thank you, excellent point. It's 2023, not 1923, and ethical social corporate governance is important now. Toyota doesn't get a pass anymore. They need to put up or die.

 

if charging is a problem, people will stop buying them

 

it's obvious on the face of it. toyota continually comes out with negative bev statements. to what other purpose?

 

Son had a PP until he ran over a ladder and totaled it. Looked for a PHEV and a Prime was quoted as 13 months. I looked around and found pretty much the same. He deposited on a LRMY as it suits his commuting needs perfectly. Already has a Hybrid ('12 Prius v with the head gasket problem) gonna get sold this month as 2 of 4 drivers will be out of the country for a while. And a PHEV Escape SUV which is a nice car. 5 in the family, urban, solar, ECO conscious to the extreme.

We have her 43 MPG Avalon Hybrid and my 39 MPG Rav4 hybrid.

I'd go to PHEV Rav4 (or equivalent) if available in a year, not very available in NC now and I only have 28k on my car. Only issues with the PHEV Rav4 is the lack of a spare tire just like the MY and that discount from MSRP I'm used to (my last 4 cars have all been bought $3k below MSRP).

 

what does your personal family car history have to do with the thread title?

 

Seeing how quickly a Rav4 hybrid sells vs the ICE model, they might have an issue getting batteries for hybrids.

Maybe they are also supporting the pols that want to ban ESG.
.

 

@mikefocke is a car customer that is considering something that runs on electricity. He is one example of millions of people that probably feel the same way.

For me personally I feel there is just enough public charging for getting around but with one exception. And like Mike, this is my case and doesn't apply to most people. The exception is I rent, don't have much hopes of having an EVSE and there is no DCFC station until you drive some 60 miles away from here. If I could charge up enough at home off of 120V 15A and an occasional trip to the 6KW level 2 charging station in town I'd be set. And I would go for that. But most people in my situation wouldn't care to own a BEV without being able to charge at level 2 speeds at home.

 

I still remember the earlier, home-brew, 'plug-in' Prius by those who added their own batteries and tricked the car into not starting the ICE. About two years later, Toyota came out with their Plug-in Prius and the home-brew pioneers disappeared ... except from our gratitude and memories.

Bob Wilson

 

In the 1 year of owning an EV I ran into a couple of charging stations that I couldn't use. One made me end up at the next charging station with close to 1% on the battery. Of course that's not saying much for an 85 mile range EV that I was hypermiling and getting over 100 miles per 100% charge regularly, except in the winter when that would drop to 30 miles even with hypermiling techniques.

But what was worse than the down charging stations (which were always level 1 or 2 except once on a single trip I hit a DCQC station) was when I planned to charge next to a shopping mall to give my wife something to do only to discover the mall was closed. That happened twice at two different malls, and actually were the only malls I had tried this wife-convincing technique. You can see why it didn't work.

 

Kinda going back to the OP's original subject, Duke energy NC as part of it's current rate application used updating to support EVs and Solar and load sharing and interconnection and green generation as the justification. 19% requested over 3 years.

And just let slip that they expect rates would have to double within the next 3 year period.

And you should hear the squeals from the newscasters who have no idea that investments are made only with the expectation of profits. Why invest for the same amount of profit?

 

Tesla Model Y Was The World&#039;s Best-Selling Car In Q1 2023

Q1 2023 the tesla model Y was the worlds best selling light vehicle. I guess Toyota's no one wants electric vehicles had to give way to another excuse. Toyota still sells the next 4 best selling models, but time is running out. If toyota had made more rav4 primes it may have stolen enough tesla Y sales to keep corolla number one.

 

amazing

 

And Ford has signed up to use Superchargers in North America.

 

Aside from the added cost of the BEV (higher than an ICE) I think a L2 home charging unit is currently a must have. I have installed and wired 8 hot tubs in my life and most recently was quoted $2400 to have the work done. Soooooo.... I pulled my own permits and did all the work myself for $519...and that was due to a 89' run of 6G THHN. Buying an BEV I plan on doing the work myself with only a 22' run. Its a walk in the park compared to the hot tub. Quote was $1,800 for that job from the same contractor. My next rental property I plan on installing a L2 charger for tenants. The high cost of an home charger..$2,500 for labor and unit.....is a definite hurdle for most people looking at buying an EV...and that hinders EV expansion as well.

 

Exactly. And depending on the situation, you may not be able to take that L2 charger with you when you move. It's nice to have a landlord provide an L2 charger for tenants!

For an example, I rent, and am on a 100A service. There are things that do draw a lot of electricty, like the electric clothes dryer. So the options for me are:

• just don't get an EV,
• just charge off of 120V 15A with no DC fast charging anywhere near me,
• or convince the landlord to up the electric service to 200A and add an L2 EVSE,
• or convince the landlord get a smart panel and add an EVSE, provided I can get the city to approve it,
• or convince the landlord to change more things to fossile fuels (like changing the electric dryer for a gas one) just to add an L2 EVSE,
• or move, which there are zero rentals with L2 EV charging whatsoever anywhere near me.