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Best way to tap 120v from the traction battery?

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Accessories & Modifications' started by Thane, May 8, 2023.

  1. Thane

    Thane Junior Member

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    120v DC

    I'm doing some planning for building a 2004 camper kitchen setup and I based on my initial research, i'm gathering that many, if not most, appliances use 120v DC, not AC. Like a radiant (infrared ) stove, which ive read takes 120v ac, converts to DC, then re-converts it to something like 720v AC to send through the heating element. I've heard higher voltage is generally more energy efficient, that our AC use in society was only through necessity and obviously inverters waste some energy, especially the ones I can currently afford. However I don't know if i would have loss either way perhaps.

    I'm aiming to try it, whether it works or not thats fine as this is partly for fun, but i am worried that somehow its not technically worth it over an inverter. Can I tap directly into the number of modules in series that produces 120v to avoid loss in a conversion? Is there anywhere else near the motor where 120 comes out (lol)? I've heard the generator produces all kinds of differing voltages however they're i believe for highly specific purposes related to driving and thus would probably have smaller fuses/relays/breakers, etc.

    I'd "just" be using a 1000w stove/pizza oven/microwave and a 1500w Keurig coffee machine while parked, not driving so I'm hoping maybe one of the 120v sources could actually work.

    Obviously safety here is critical and will be a major factor in the design and implementation, not to worry.
     
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    You need to check out @ChapmanF's thread for this.

    Most household heat-making appliances that I have repaired or studied are directly applying 120VAC to the heating element. It's cheaper in terms of parts and there's lots of safety engineered in.

    I'm slightly curious about where you've read differently.

    In very broad electrical sense, controlling high AC currents is pretty easy with an inverter, and that is basic off-the-shelf stuff now.

    Controlling high DC currents tends to require larger and more expensive parts. Unless you are just trying to do some redneck welding, anyway.

    tl;dr: it's worth putting up with the conversion loss of an inverter because the resulting utility is much safer and more compatible overall, and cheaper even when you include the cost of the inverter.
     
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  3. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I'm with Leadfoot, and dubious about where you might ever have read that.

    You may have read that many appliances, especially older and simpler ones, may not care much whether they get AC or DC. Those that only make heat, those that only have motors with brushes, and so on. Even some modern electronics might work, because they start with a switch-mode power supply that might be able to do its job from a DC input, even if not designed for it.

    These days, you'd have to make a lot of assumptions about whether some appliance you want to plug in will work that way, though.

    Radiant stoves, as far as I know, just apply the incoming AC voltage to the heating element. They don't do any processing of it first.

    Induction stoves, the fancy new ones that are crazy efficient if you have the right cookware, do re-invert the power to produce AC at much higher frequency, 25,000 cycles per second or more, so they can induce currents in the skin of the right metal cookware. They may also be changing the voltage while they do that, if that's convenient for the design of their coils.

    Those stoves and cooktops still all seem to be quite expensive, as if the only makers producing them believe no one would want an efficient stove without also wanting it to do wi-fi and carry on conversations with them and know what recipes they prefer when they are sad.
     
  4. ColoradoCrow

    ColoradoCrow Active Member

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    "Alexa, preheat the oven to 350 degrees."............"OK....done". ..........(10 min later)
    "Your oven is up to temperature."
    When she asks me if we are having salmon again for dinner......I'm throwing her out the kitchen window.:mad:
     
  5. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Adding-

    This bit deserves a special call-out.

    Toyota has gone through a lot of effort to make certain the cells in that battery pack all get charged and discharged exactly as much as each other. They did this because it greatly contributes to overall battery longevity.

    If you half-tap the thing, you're likely to experience a serious reduction in battery lifetime. Just one more problem that gets solved by using an inverter.
     
  6. Thane

    Thane Junior Member

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    Sorry the the late reply. I have limited access to the internet at the moment and I have only a few minutes to reply now. I read little pieces here and there about DC being more efficient than AC, perhaps only from the loss from heat due to the extra, un-needed current and thats it. I read a lot of search results but I didn't get very deep myself, just found a lot of people saying the same thing. I tried to find some content but this was the only thing i actually saved to read later: How much electricity can we save by using direct current circuits in homes? Understanding the potential for electricity savings and assessing feasibility of a transition towards DC powered buildings - ScienceDirect. The discussion I read about the radiant cooktop was from quora.com or stackexchange. ( I know.... lol ) It was just one (one guy on the internet, you all and I know hes both 100% right ;) ) person describing this system with no one corroborating it, but given how I assumed rectifiers work, seems plausible. Everything that comes with an adapter, is basically something that uses DC current. I saw enough info to believe that this system should work and take some load off the 12v system which would be cool because I'd like to maybe get rid of it completely some day, again, just for fun and learning. I've gotta run, wish I had more time. I'll get back to this asap. Thanks for the great replies.
     
  7. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Yes in an absolute sense, feeding available DC to a device that works fine on DC is the most efficient. But you lose a lot of safety and compatibility when the actual application needs more power than say, a flashlight or a smartphone.
     
  8. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There's not, in general, anything about AC that's extra or un-needed.

    Some kinds of of devices, like heating elements, really don't care what they get. Some electronic circuits need DC, and some need AC, like some other devices such as motors, which naturally want AC but can be made to work on DC with things like brushes and commutators (or brushless motor drive that makes AC). So lots of appliances need some of each (DC for the control logic and AC for some motors), and will contain circuits to take whatever the supply is and make whatever else they need.
     
  9. Thane

    Thane Junior Member

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    Thanks, yeah, I've heard this before and never quite understood how it works. I sorta assumed it wouldn't from my prior research before replacing individual modules a couple times. But I thought I might have read they had individual chips in them, controlling the flow, ...or something. Maybe just overload protection was all it was. My memory is so bad these days.

    As far as compatibility goes, I didn't mean to imply I remove all 12v sources. I'd just like to look into removing as much inefficiency as possible, just for fun really. Something to keep my mind off of things. I'd want 12v and 5v at a minimum unless I can find a way to make something more efficient. I plan on having a water pump with a built-in reservoir on the back part of the roof supplying filtered water, a welder, maybe a light duty air pump, lights that illuminate under the car when someone approaches, lights on all four corners on the roof with switches and a remote, custom interior lighting with a remote, fog lights, etc. Its a big passion project so the kitchen sink is being thrown in too, literally (hole in the floor for washing dishes and ventilation :) ).

    @ChapmanF Thanks for the info. I can't even remember what i'd read that praised DC. Memory is going down the tubes pretty fast, yikes. I shouldn't comment on it until I can remember or investigate more. Regardless, its the over all system efficiency i'm still worried about and I'd like to avoid conversions and heat loss if all reasonably possible.