Gen 3 Motor Issues - Piston Soak - Blowby Pressure

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Paladain55, Nov 14, 2022.

  1. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    1. What happens in a 'Default Mode'?
    I thought it was reported here that a simple blockoff plate instead of the seal exiting the EGR Valve or simply unplugging the EGR valve would defeat it.
    Would either of these immediately create a fault code? Is it ok to drive with this active code?
    Paladain claims to still get good fuel economy with his defeated, no mention of the code.
    And what about the Brazilian version of the Prius? Is it rated less MPG numbers?

    2. Do mean a Toyota EV? :whistle: *asks the +9 year EV owner...*

    3. Blowby gas getting consumed by the intake is not so bad. Surely not worth an engine overhaul if oil consumption isn't clogging the cat.
    I had one car, ('73 Lotus Europa) that only had a crankcase hose leave the top of the engine and dump into the intake track after the air filter. The Ol'Strombergs would get some oil film but nothing too bad.
    Dumping it under the hood is worse than the 50's.
    I just don't see the problem with the stock system. Is it the 'pooling' of oil in the bottom of the intake manifold.
    And a catch can should stop those complaints.
     
    #61 Bill Norton, May 4, 2023
    Last edited: May 4, 2023
  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    57,960
    39,991
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Instead of trying to defeat the EGR (smog inspectors won't be impressed), you could clean it every 50K or so. Appreciate this shouldn't have to be, Toyota screwed-the-pooch with third gen EGR design, but here we are...

    Apologies for breaking radio silence btw:

     
    Paladain55 likes this.
  3. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Right, not for states with that type of inspections.
    But others that don't want to take on the long laborious task,,,
    What about defeating the EGR system so those goofy tiny passages in the plastic intake manifold don't get clogged and limit flow to some cylinders?
    What bad comes if you do that?
    You have a check engine light?
    You get possibly a measurable drop in fuel economy?
    You no longer have to schedule this massive clean up on the EGR system?
     
  4. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2008
    9,114
    5,521
    7
    Location:
    Texas Hill Country
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Yes you will get a check engine light. It takes some runtime. The engine downgrade will be subtle. I would run higher octane gas. In Brazil they would have a new factory tune to accommodate.
     
    #64 rjparker, May 4, 2023
    Last edited: May 4, 2023
  5. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    How 'subtle'? Measurable?
    Which codes start this 'downgrade' process? Is it just spark timing? (Since you mentioned octane, which I will not do.)
    The engine still has a knock sensor in its array of sensors.
    Is this a theory or in writing somewhere?
     
  6. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I have a dragy. I can run with and without and see if there is a difference on performance. lol
    But this isn't really why i drive this car so I don't really care. I mostly just pulse and glide and stick to 2000 rpm etc...
    Yeah im sure the car adjusts timing as best it can to run without egr.

    EGR delete:
    Have the 12v battery connected
    Make sure the car has ran with the egr connected at least once.
    Go under the hood and unplug the electrical connector to the electronic egr valve.
    Dash will throw a p0403
    2nd portion of the EGR delete:
    clean your EGR system extremely thouroughly and make sure it functions
    you can plug it back in for emissions testing
    you then get an obd2 scanner and clear the codes and drive around until the obd monitor sets to ready
    go do your emissions testing
    Get your test done with a pass and then unplug it again when you leave.
    Suddenly you never have to clean the egr system ever again
    Notes:
    If you ever unplug the 12v battery, you will have to go plug the egr connector back in, drive for a couple seconds, and then unplug the electrical connector on the egr valve again.
    You have to do that after every 12v disconnect as the car will high idle around 1200-1500 rpm and will get confused on when to shut off.

    PCV wise the stock layout pulls from behind the maf and returns air behind the maf. This is so the air is all calculated for. I just sealed the nipples off on the air intake so its a completely sealed intake separate from the crankcase ventilation ports now. Crankcase has to deal with windage but the reason why we have the ventilation system is the pistons produce blowby since the rings aren't perfect and pressurize the crankcase. If you go disable the pcv on your car and plug all of it off it'll just blow whatever seals it can out to release the pressure. So we do cv or pcv to manage pressure and keep that from happening. Also, water vapor and liquids can escape when the oil is hot.
    Both my upper and lower hose are connected to a vented catch can. My crankcase is not connected to my intake anymore.
     
    Bill Norton likes this.
  7. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Thanks for this info! (y)

    1. Can you simplify the steps? I don't have inspections. I don't see where you clear the code. Why does it stay off?
    Would a thin SS block-off plate on the manifold side of the EGR valve also do this job?
    I'm aware of the code that the MAP / MAF differences is a way of indicating EGR blockage, so that code would probably show up.

    2. Come on, man You know that's smelly and unhealthy.
    At least seal the can and run its exhaust hose to the back of the car.
    That way you have 2 smelly tail pipes back there.

    (My wife's car has none!):cool:
     
  8. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Honestly its really not bad. I've rode in diesels and 350 powered boats that made want to throw up. This here is hardly a thing.

    Yeah i wouldn't do anything past unplugging the electrical connector and getting a simple obd2 plug in scanner to read and clear codes and check for obd2 readiness.
    We don't want to spoof or delete anything. Just run in safe mode without egr.
    I think a guy on here gutted his egr valve to spoof it and it made his car run like a donkey.
     
    Bill Norton likes this.
  9. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Thanks again for the info and now, one more walking me thru it, please....

    I have Torque Pro. I'm not clear what bd2 readiness is. I know code reading and clearing and running PIDs for the Prius.

    What's safe mode and how do I know I'm in it?
     
  10. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    p0403 is an egr malfunction code that results in safe mode. when you go to an emissions testing center they will plug in their monitor and check for obd ready or not ready. If it doesn't say ready it means you fail and need to go drive around until it sets to ready. most obd2 scanners will tell if you are ready or not on the first screen. I don't have torque though.

    Also, I forgot to mention. I haven't had any start up knocks at all with the open air catch can. I almost forgot that was an issue with priuses.
     
  11. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    Thanks again,

    Can you describe what Safe Mode is? It's not a 'limp mode', right?
    Is it derating something in the engine?

    You are driving around with the light on, in safe mode and no problems with performance, right?
     
  12. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    2,653
    1,145
    0
    Location:
    Northwestern S.C.
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    That was true of many imported cars around that time, including my '72 Subaru and my brother's '74 VW Dasher. (Actually, the Subaru dumped blowby oil, gases, and condensed water into the clean side of the air filter, until I modified it.) That is, they avoided polluting our atmosphere with blowby nasties, but did nothing to flush it out of the crankcase with fresh air. Not coincidentally, recommended oil change intervals were shorter then.
     
    Paladain55 and Bill Norton like this.
  13. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Update on the photos post cleaning: This is after 7,950 miles. You can see since this is an atkinson cycle engine and it pushes some of the intake charge out of the intake valves during the combustion cycle to decrease the compression ratio a bit to reduce pumping losses while keeping the expansion ratio high to increase efficiency, the car gets quite a bit of oil in the intake ports and manifold still. Pistons rings aren't perfect and I assume they still have a bit of clogging on them. Also, I suspect the valve guide seals probably weep a bit.
    Photos:
    1. Throttle Body:


    2. Cylinder 1 Intake Port:


    3. Cylinder 2 Intake Port:


    4. Cylinder 3 Intake Port:


    5. Cylinder 4 Intake Port:


    6. Bottom of Intake Manifold:


    7. Intake Manifold Port 1:


    8. Intake Manifold Port 2:


    9. Intake Manifold Port 3:


    10. Intake Manifold Port 4:


    11. After Cleaning Intake Ports With a quick wipe of e85, brushing the injectors with e85, and cleaning the intake manifold with a quick swish of e85.


    Car is a bit dirty so you excuse all of that. It got a bit dirty as I was pulling it apart, but I got it all cleaned off and reassembled no problem.
    I'm pretty happy with the results so far. I also swapped to Pennzoil Platinum High Mileage Full Syn 0w-20 for this next round. Hoping the slight addition of seal conditioner in the high mileage formulation will help swell the seals a bit to create a bit less weep on my seals like the valve guide seals.
     
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    57,960
    39,991
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Try downsampling and directly posting the images. The above images are bring my phone and pc to a near standstill.
     
  15. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    So, to recap and catch up new people to this thread,,,
    This is what it looks like after someone disconnects the EGR valve and dumps the crankcase ventilation gases under the hood...
    Old school style....:oops:

    Although, you do have me interested in defeating the EGR if the fuel economy hit is not too great. (Brazilian style)
     
  16. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Yup although I'm just checking we are on the same page. The oil inside the intake is from the combustion process allowing the intake valve to be opened while compressing the first bit of the intake charge so it can be pushed back into the intake manifold to be sucked into a separate and more willing cylinder to reduce pumping losses and increase efficiency through the decrease of the compression pumping losses and effective compression ratio while keeping the extremely high expansion ratio of this engine. The oil is the result of the Atkinson process as described above in combination with the imperfect seal of the piston rings, and possibly the valve seals leaking, as they do on a car that is 13 years old. All in all the actual oil consumption is well within spec and the carbon build up is also way down! Also, my engine is so dirty because this was a great lakes car when I bought it so I have sprayed the car with lubricant oil to contain and stop the rust present all around the chassis and engine bay. The number one killer of old reliable toyotas was rust so I do the same process of coating the prius to stop rust. It does a great job like the waxed frames GM uses but it can get dirty and stick to road debris and look ugly.
    So far so we have learned that oil consumption and oil in the intake can come from MANY different sources.
    Seems like to sum up the thread along with EGR maintenance these cars could very likely benefit from piston soaks.
     
  17. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    57,960
    39,991
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    Some oil in the intake manifold is from the intake ports, copious more is delivered by the PCV system.
     
  18. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Another oil change update: 5300 miles and 16oz of oil burned. So 5300mi/.5qt= 1quart of oil burned every 10,600 miles. Still in A- territory for oil consumption. Thats pretty good I will take it and no issues at all. Car runs like new. I have noticed since its hotter than sin outside the oil catch can stays bone dry.
     
    Bill Norton likes this.
  19. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Update again: 5,550 miles on this oil change. Supertech 0w-20 high mileage. Oil in: 141oz, oil out: 133oz. Extremely impressive considering my mix of driving was 50% interstate, 50% city for this mix, all warm weather until probably the last two weeks.
    So the car burned 5500mi/0.25qt= 1 quart of oil burned every 22,000 miles. Maybe the high mileage oil finally is in full effect. But heck yeah went from burning 0.5qt oil change to 0.25qt per oil change. Oil changed on the same level surface every time for even comparison.
    MPG avg split mix driving was ~51mpg for this change using ac, driving interstate etc...

    Exciting considering at one point the car had an egr knock, needed egr cleaning, brakes were about to lock up, car was chugging oil and getting like 41mpg at peak low a couple years ago.

    Keep up on the maintenance and go above and beyond folks! Its worth it. Even if random people disagree with ya.
     
    mjoo and Bill Norton like this.
  20. Paladain55

    Paladain55 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2021
    388
    153
    0
    Location:
    The South
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    duplicate
     
    #79 Paladain55, Nov 12, 2023
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2023
  21. Bill Norton

    Bill Norton Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2012
    2,065
    697
    0
    Location:
    MONW, Ks.
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Five
    That is some good data gathering!
    And just to recap,,, this was from using e85 as your piston soak liquid?