Featured Toyota Patents Working Manual for Performance Hybrids

They must have heard you:

https://www.thedrive.com/news/44261/toyota-has-a-patent-to-recreate-manual-transmissions-for-evs

I think I agree with the writer: "... I imagine the kind of person that's worried about manual boxes going the way of the dodo will be as excited about having their car fake one as they would be about having it pipe fake engine noise into the cabin."

 

The manual on a hybrid was pretty much done a long time ago by the Honda insight.
We have dual clutch automated manuals that allow the driver to select new gears. I am not sure what this brings to the table other than a foot pedal for clutch that operates like a dual clutch automated manual. Hell you can even put a slush box in there if you want and lock it fast if the driver doesn't want it to feel like a regular automatic.

I'm sure jay Leno and some other collectors will buy this but why not just do the Honda insight thing and then add an electric motor on the other axle too.

 

Dodge did a real manual on the Charger EV concept.

I suspect this is for the parallel hybrids Toyota has been using in performance trims lately. Most of those have that second motor too.

 

When I bought the Leaf and then quickly traded it for the Avalon the main thing I miss most on all my cars from before is the manual transmission.

Let me put it this way: For me, a manual transmission is what makes driving fun, especially when the car isn't very powerful.

 

I just did a nationwide search for manual transmission Honda Insights. There's one from 2000 with 235,000 miles on it for $6,500. It's a neat car but I need more than two seats and the batteries on those weren't as good as Toyota's. Plus you can't find the batteries anymore from what I understand, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a hybrid.

 

Honda's IMA was a simpler mild hybrid design than what is in full parallel hybrids of today. While its low power motor is between the engine and transmission, it did not have the clutches to allow it to disconnect from either. That made it easier to mate to any transmission.

The manual was part of the reason why the batteries weren't as good. The early IMA control discharged the NiMH pack deeper than what Toyota and others limited it too. That lead to shorter life. The control a driver had with a manual transmission could let them discharge the battery even further. This was fixed in later models, like the CR-Z.

The cells in the IMA hybrids, and the very first Prius, were off the shelf C or D NiMH. Finding an Insight pack already assembled might be difficult, but rebuilding one is possible. Many have done so using the cells from the Prius.

The hybrid system also isn't a critical system for an Insight. It'll have a little less power, but the car can be driven without it. An aside, but at least one person installed a turbo on one. IIRC, the turbo came from a Suzuki Sprint.

Won't have to worry about body rust on an Insight.

 

Thing is, the old auto enthusiast case for a manual transmission was to have the driver directly attuned to the characteristics of the machine. An adjustable gearbox was something the combustion engine inherently needed, so let the driver be right in there understanding the machine's capabilities and needs and choosing how to cater to them.

The EV, by contrast, has no inherent need for an adjustable gearbox, and if you read that Toyota "manual EV transmission" patent, you're just reading about a bunch of software changes to an ECU to take an extra "clutch" and "shifter" input and respond with a bunch of non-EV behaviors (clutch friction, lugging, stalling, topping out), simulated electrically, to cater to a human who wants to feel like it's some totally other kind of machine.

It's kind of cool, from a video-game design perspective, but it couldn't get any further from the original ideal of having the driver attuned to the actual characteristics of the machine.

 

True, which I guess means that driving has become a commodity, not a passion. I need a car because I need to get from point A to point B. All the things modern cars are supposedly "fun" to me aren't fun.

• I don't care for quick 0 to 60 times. To me it's rude to peal out like a bat out of hell just to show off.
• I hate the touchscreens in my cars already. I don't even like a touchscreen on my phone. Making cars into tablets with wheels doesn't appeal to me.
• Peronsally I don't find any car to be ugly. The looks of Gen 1 through 5 Prii all look fine to me. What bothers me is the blunt hatchback and high profile of SUV's and crossovers because in my mind cars need to be as aerodynamic as possible and still be practical. But it's not like the car is more fun to drive just because it's red and has triangular headlights.
• I also like sounds to a degree. But modern cars are becoming too quite in my opinion.

With that said I don't find driving interesting anymore. Yes, a "manual" shifter in an EV would be like a video game. I might go for it just for fun, but you're right in that it wouldn't serve any purpose. Cars that drive themselves mean that I no longer serve the purpose of a driver. My skills and talents will no longer be needed the way things are going.

On the other hand, as long as there's an ICE there's a need for a transmission of some sort. Also with EV's there are cars like the Porsche Taycan that use a transmission. There's no reason that I know of why that transmission couldn't be a manual.

 

It's like the way so many Prius reviewers complain about the "monotonous drone" of the CVT.

My first car was a manual. So was my second and my third. I liked it because it cemented my understanding of the way those machines worked.

I like the monotonous drone in my Prius, because it cements my understanding of the way this machine works.

 

I do like the way cars work. I like how the Prius works. I like how Teslas work and their electric motors that combine the benefits of both a permanent magnet motor and a reluctance motor into one package.

But liking how a car works doesn't make the driving experience more fun for me. All cars are becoming the same, put it in drive and press the accelerator pedal.

So yes, I like my Prius because it's a Prius and it has a planetary gear set that splits the torque between the wheels and a motor/generator that works in conjuction with the HV battery and the other motor/generator that's on the final drive. That's all really cool. But it doesn't make the driving experience cool. The car does all that all by itself without my help.

 

Many BEV conversions used a manual transmission. Not sure why. Maybe it was too difficult, but I suspect it was for efficiency. The batteries were really expensive or low energy density, which meant low ranges, as in the first Leaf. Using an ICE transmission also saved costs vs making something, and likely meant they could use a less powerful, cheaper DC motor.

We'll may see more BEVs using a transmission like the Taycan's in the future. It could allow a smaller battery, provide longer trip range, or better performance. They are just two or three speeds, and some trips could mean it never shifts. My understanding of the Taycan's operation is that the car starts in the high cruise gear, and only downshifts for heavy acceleration. A BEV doesn't need the torque multiplication of low gears in an ICE transmission to get the car rolling from a stop. Neither do they need to be kept in a narrow operation band for power or efficiency.

The use case for an actual manual in an EV has a narrow use case. Dodge did it for one that also has a fake engine noise generator that can go louder than their Hellcat.

I do get how manually shifting can make the drive more engaging. Perhaps that can be found in true one pedal driving, instead of three. Or other means of controlling regen braking outside the usual motions of accelerating and braking.

 

I understand how some find a manual more engaging.
I am not trying to change anyone’s mind, just sharing my own experience…

I have never felt a more exciting driving experience than when driving an EV.
There is nothing that interferes between me and the road.
I want the car to move forward, it does so, with a response as close to instant that I can’t tell the difference.
No delay as the turbo winds up, or the fuel spills into the combustion chambers. No sluggishness as the car strives to reach the most efficient RPM band.
With pressure on the accelerator I instantly feel a direct surge in power. It is, for me, intoxicating. The first seven years of owning EVs I drove further each year than I had in any other year of my driving career.

If I want to feel a connection to a machine I’ll wait till I wind up in an ‘iron lung’. I want a connection to the road. And I want to be able to hear my passenger while I experience it

 

Good for you. I personally never felt that in the Nissan Leaf. I remember reading reviews of how people loved the instant torque and thinking I was going to love it too. But when I drove the Leaf it didn't fell that different from an ICE and automatic. Yes, response was perhaps quicker, but I didn't feel like it made that much of a difference personally.

Then again, like I said before, I detest peeling out quickly from a stop. Even if I had a car with a turbo I probably would never actually need it.

There are different types of electric motors, some of which do have a narrower power band or range of efficient operation. If there were a case for such a motor maybe driving a manual could make sense. For an example, maybe the permanent magnents in the Tesla not only use more rare-earth metals, but maybe the motor could be slightly more efficient if it were just a reluctance motor. If that were the case, then it would have a more narrow power and efficiency band that could require shifting to keep it there. However, it would be different than an ICE.

One idea I've had is some sort of control for total power and regen. Like one-pedal driving with a lever on the column that moves the max regen and power from low to high. It would feel like driving a manually operated CVT from the point of the driver, or it could be stepped like the retarder lever in the buses I've driven. The lower power/regen settings could make for more precise movements of the accelerator. Then you could pull it down and have a torquey, twitchy feeling pedal that wants to lay that rubber down or slow you down in a hurry between no throttle and all throttle.

Edit: Just having a "clutch" pedal that lets the coast in a neutral-like state would be welcome to me. In both the Leaf and my hybrids I often try to feather the accelerator to a neutral possition when "hypermiling", which is pretty much impossible, and coasting with the shifter in neutral is considered illegal.

 

Like the idea. Some EVs with the regen on demand through something like paddle shifters could be close.

 

Apologies, I wasn’t clear.
This isn’t about fast acceleration. This is about having instant and total control of the car. It doesn’t matter if you are in a parking lot, or freeway.
That instant response is, for me, something unmatched in an ICE.

 

I know what you were referring to. I still don't see how it helps. The Leaf had instant torque, but I didn't feel like it was a "total control" or any better than any tipical car that takes half a second to respond.

But everyone has their likes and dislikes, and I respect that you like the instant torque even if I wasn't impressed by it.

 

Was that because they couldn’t patent playing card touching spokes of a wheel?

Bob Wilson

 

No, Apple already had that patent.