Edmunds.com: 2023 Prius Prime vs. 2023 Niro PHEV

It's actually more expensive than a Prime, according to Trollbait - but I do see what your saying.

I use fuelly.com to get actual, real-world gas consumption data; when I'm researching cars to buy. There are a few 2023 Kia Niro hybrids there. Looks like Kia's average 36.5 - 51.2 real world. The latest Prime data is only 2021; seems no 2022 or 2023 Prime owners' registered or input data. The 2021 Prime average ranges from 50.6 - 200+ mpg; obviously the 200+ mpg guy has short commutes and in EV mode 99% of the time driving. The 50.6 mpg guy last reported 139 fill-ups; so he/she probably never plug-in.

Again; these real world numbers really effect cost of ownership bottom line. While Kia/Hyundai has been improving over the years; I would rather place my $35K bet on a Toyota vs Kia.

 

I must be a "poor man"!

Our PHEV NIRO certainly does turn on the ICE to provide heat and I love it. No winter range loss for electric- the ICE turns on to provide heat and charges the battery while doing so - exercises the engine and the engine is always ready to go.

The engine runs at an idle and only comes on when the coolant drops to a certain temperature and turns off as soon as it is warm enough to produce heat. Produces a nice warm cabin heat. Has a PTC heater to supplement if necessary, the heat coming out of the ducts is never 'cool'. You can keep the heat pump I don't want it - no need with an ICE already there- just an additional component and complexity to fail.

There is no one right way to build a PHEV - there are many different approaches and many different opinions on what is the right way.

A heat pump is also one way to build the PHEV and is a good way and an alternative to running the ICE - not my preference though.

Base NIRO PHEV is $33,840 MSRP it is a direct competitor of the Prius Prime
2023 Kia Niro PHEV | Crossover SUV - Pricing & Features | Kia

Many of the NIRO owners are former Prius owners and speak very highly of the Prius. If you really want to experience the differences, sit in a NIRO PHEV and check out all the standard tech and safety features - Toyota has greatly improved the new Prius to make it more competitive but I bet you immediately notice some differences between the two vehicles as soon as you explore the NIRO.

Both are great cars - want to have some fun - try to find a PHEV that gets over 30 miles electric range on a full charge - and gets over 50 mpg with a 600 mile range. Hint: there are only two in the world.
Both the Prius and Niro may be rated a hair under 50 mpg but both easily surpass this with sensible driving.
Two very special select cars when you talk about PHEV's.

 

The gen4 Prime used 0.0gal/100mi of gas for its 133mpge rating. The engine fired up for something during the test. The PiP used 0.2gal, and there is no gas figure posted for the 2019 Volt, so a value isn't posted when no gas is used. The gen5 isn't up on Fueleconomy.gov, maybe it avoids using the engine during the tests.

The new Niro PHEV isn't up yet either, but the old gen used 0.0gal/100mi of gas.

The Niro PHEV was designed to make the best use of the fuels available to it within the constraints of the car design and costs. Just like the PiP. Instead of using up the limited energy in the relatively small battery for heavy acceleration and high speed, it uses the engine and gas to save the electricity for when it can cover the most miles. The engine is there use it, cause extended lack of use of it and gas can lead to reliability problems.

As pointed out, the full time EV mode of the Prime is a North American thing. It is the result of marketing and misguided consumer wants. It is no different than the desire for power and speed, and like that, it results in the waste of resources.

Prove it.

Fuelly is useless for dual fuel cars like PHEVs. It simply isn't set up for it. Which leads to it ignoring electricity used. We can assume the really high numbers are from EV use, and the low are hybrid mode only, but we can't know. Maybe that 50mpg entry does include electricity. Then people might fudge entries to get around Fuelly's 'improper data' filters.

The averages for the hybrids of the Prius, Ioniq, and Niro all trend a little lower than the EPA combined mpg. So the EPA for the EV mode is probably a fair comparison for them.

 

We own a Gen 4 Prius Prime and we know how it works. You don't.

As I explained above, there is nothing more annoying than the ICE kicking in during intended BEV driving. Most people will agree.

For heavy-footed drivers (not me), there is the EV-auto mode on Prius Prime, which gets help from the ICE when needed. I find the EV mode more than plentiful in acceleration without straining the battery and have never tried the EV-auto mode. Gen 5 is even better.

What Edmunds did is a misrepresentation of the BEV range. If turning on the ICE is OK during BEV driving, then I can get an 800-mile BEV range on my Prius Prime.

Yes, Toyota builds their cars right. The Edmunds guy liked the safety system on Niro better because it was "simpler." Except, safety systems are not supposed to be simple. All other reviewers praised TSS 3.0. I won't take Edmunds reviews seriously after I've seen this.

 

From Consumer Reports review of 2023 Kia Niro HEV:

In our most recent test of 12 ADA systems, Kia’s Highway Driving Assist finished last. It scored well for its ease-of-use, thanks to the separate steering-wheel controls for ACC and LCA. But it scored poorly for its choppy steering assistance, and that, if the system detects an unresponsive driver, the ADA system will simply shut itself off before bringing the vehicle safely to a stop.

 

Here are the Consumer Reports rankings of active driving assistance (ADA) systems. Toyota ranked well. Hyundai/Kia ranked at the bottom of functioning ADA systems.

CR on Driver Assist Systems | PriusChat

 

Most people agree that going from zero to sixty in under 7 seconds is better. That doesn't make a car capable of that efficient.

If that is a misrepresentation, then so are the EPA's numbers for the Prius Prime. Did the reviewer try to hide the fact that the engine came on?

So, you're planning on your EV6 being as reliable as a 1992 Sephia.

 

Two things.

In EU too, EV mode is declared on specs up to 135 km/h.

Whether in EPA testing is allowed firing the engine during the EV mode testing is something to be ascertained.
In WLTP is allowed. More than this.

In WLTP the so-called "Ev-range" is labeled = Equivalent All Electric Range (EAER)
This definition does exist also in US. This is also called blended mode:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blended_mode

An example of plug-in hybrids that operate in blended mode while charge-depleting is the Toyota Prius Plug-in Hybrid. Because the Prius plug-in operates as a series-parallel hybrid, the U.S. EPA estimated its EV range for blended operation on a combination of electricity (from a fully charged battery pack) and gasoline as 11 mi (18 km) until the battery is depleted


The car maker is obliged by WLTP to give to the public only the value of the gasoline spent in the EV test due to the firing of the ICE and not the FE with an empty battery (charge-sustaining mode).

Prius PHEV 2023 WLTP figures:
17" = EAER 86 km + 0,5 lt/100km
19" = EAER 72 km + 0,7 lt/100km
Empty battery FE = unknown, not to be declared.
The engine, if fired during testing, must be a cold start.

An EV-mode without any firing of the ICE gives AER = All Electric Range.
Is it US EPA testing using AER or EAER for the 2023? To be ascertained.
As you see, for the PiP, EPA used EAER.

Indeed, the EPA values are easy to understand. The WLTP are terribly ambiguous and 99% of people thinks that in 100 km you will consume 0,7 lt of gas + a full EV charge. Which is absolutely NOT. You spend that quantity of gas just to drive the EAER range.

 

In any case, Edmunds did several apples vs. oranges comparisons:

• Driving the car at 70 mph and claiming that the EPA BEV range cannot be met, while the EPA BEV range is measured at much much lower speeds.
• Comparing the BEV ranges of Prius Prime and Niro while Niro was running in the HV mode and using gasoline and Prius Prime was running in the pure BEV mode.
• Comparing the active-driving assistance (ADA) systems on Prius Prime and Niro based on "I am a simple guy; so, I like the simpler Niro system better."

In fact, I don't know if the last one is even an apples vs. oranges comparison. Does he even use ADA systems on his daily driving?

I will stick with Consumer Reports testing, where the tests are done in a methodological, systematic manner by a team of engineers.

 

Especially DRY dual clutch gearboxes. VW and Porsche know how to do a dual clutch.