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Car affordability in 2022 and beyond

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jul 2, 2022.

  1. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    From my own experience, NYC and Washington D.C. are not that bad, but both are still well behind what most other "big cities" in the world are offering.

    And I have my own experience in Boston. The T itself isn't completely awful, but once you add purple-line problems it's all over. Part of that is just a bit of geographic honesty: Real Boston suburbs are places like Somerville, Brookline and maaaybe Quincy. You go out as far as the "Ws" (Weymouth, Weston, Wakefield, Winchester) and you're just buying into some real estate agent's dream. People only started referring to those outer towns as "Boston suburbs" in response to a ton of road building and car ownership, both of which are barely a century old.

    I can easily see that transportation for the physically disabled adds enormous pressure to have a private transportation solution. Lots of cities worldwide are hard on the less-able-bodied.
     
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Think that statement can extend beyond cities.
     
  3. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    During Covid lockdown, I had to go to my daughter's primary school to pick up some books. Primary in Australia is ages 5 to 11; secondary is 12 to 19.

    I had a chat (from a distance) with the Deputy Principal. (For "deputy" here, read "de facto" - the actual principal never seemed to do anything.)

    He said that he was not at seriously concerned about the kids missing out on their education. Online learning was not as good as the real thing, but it was OK, and really, he said, at primary school there is a huge amount of wiggle room: you need to learn enough to be able to survive in secondary school.

    But he said he was really worried about them missing out on what they were really at primary school for: learning how to make friends, how to operate in a society with lots of people in it, and learning how to support people; how to accept support from people; and how to deal with challenging social environments.

    I totally agree with you on daycare: I think it's a really important thing.
     
  4. hkmb

    hkmb Senior Member

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    Hong Kong and Shanghai were a joy from a public transport point of view.

    Even when I lived in the countryside in Hong Kong, in a national park, it took me about 40 minutes to get to the city centre. There was a bus to our nearest small town every 20 minutes. From there there was a minibus every 5 minutes to the MTR (subway) station, and then on the MTR there was a train every two minutes. They were all clean and fast and reliable and convenient.

    In Shanghai, my home and office were each two or three minutes' walk from a subway station, and there was a train every two or three minutes. Both at home and at the office, all the things you mention (except a place of worship, which really didn't bother me) were within a five-minute walk.

    Sydney isn't terrible, but that's because we live quite close to the city centre. There's a bus every ten minutes or so into the city centre, or a ferry every 30 minutes. A ferry through Sydney Harbour is just about the nicest commute anyone can have, I think.
     
  5. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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  6. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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  7. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    What specifically is your criticism?

    If it is that they are ignoring price, do you have information that price is a significant factor?
     
  8. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I agree with the idea that mobility electrification is fundamentally important and should be done urgently for environmental reasons. I want to make that clear first off.

    It is not apparent to me that the author ever considered the idea that automakers invested in ICE production might have some responsibilities to their shareholders.

    So it looks to me like a mis-directed complaint- trying to shame automakers for doing exactly what they are obligated to do. I think it would be a lot more constructive if the effort were spent in trying to change those obligations.

    Going after management & operations down at the manufacturing level seems wrong. They are all deeply incentivized to sell all they can out of old, paid-for manufacturing facilities. If they don't, they get fired. Even if they don't get fired, their competitors are constantly clamoring to take their place and allowing that will get them fired for sure.

    With different incentives, this could all work differently- but that's going to have to come from further up. Maybe way further up.

    Calling out manufacturer management for the failings of shareholders, banks & government regulators just looks wrong to me.
     
  9. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    -Not specifically related to the electrek article tangent above-
    What would rapid adoption of EVs look like? What would it take? Here's a few questions and ideas focused on affordable EV adoption.

    1. Make charging-at-work a default wherever possible. Does the employer have parking for employees? Okay, every last employee space should be electrified.

    Lots of apartment dwellers don't have access and also don't have the leverage to get chargers installed at home, and that's assuming they even have dedicated parking. Requiring employers to provide charging for employees would go a long way to cracking this one. It also gets a lot of charging done during daytime hours, which seems to be emerging as an important detail to prevent lopsided grid loading.

    2. This one is an open-ended question about volume. I'm not a stats guy, but I know some of you are. I did some searches to get an idea of how many cars are sold, used vs. new. From what I found on the public internet, it looks like there are about 1.2 million new car sales per month in the USA. And about 3 million used car sales per month.

    A significant swath of the buying public cannot afford new cars at all. We're never going to meet our environmental goals (demands? necessities?) by only serving the peak of the market. So how do we get to 3 million used EV sales per month?

    2a. Would there be a useful benefit to requiring all EV makers to lease all of their output as a means to boost that secondary market? The root idea is to use rapid depreciation to convert less-affordable EVs into more-affordable EVs.

    3. I'd like to read more specifics about reducing and eliminating petro subsidies, or possibly mirroring their benefits for electrification efforts. Any suggestions?
     
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  10. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    How many even provide parking?
     
  11. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Some don't, and many don't provide a 1:1 employee-to-parking-space ratio. So a more sophisticated rule would be needed, no doubt.

    But that's the sort of thing I'm trying to call attention to. I'll throw in an example from my suburban neighborhood, an ordinary grocery store which has about 20 people on full time duty.

    Most of the employees who work there need to drive there. As is common, there is no separate employee lot. The employees are directed to park in spaces far away from the door to leave more desirable spaces open for the customers. Many of the people who work there live in rentals with little or no opportunity to charge at home.

    So in a charge-at-work regime, they'd need electrify about 20 of their least-desirable parking spaces. And that would probably have to happen after they electrified some of the more desirable slots for customer use, just to prevent the customers from taking over chargers that the employees are counting on.

    Anyone else see a bunch of complications in this?
     
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  12. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I am not regularly commuting right now, but when I do, I reserve a parking spot for the EV charger. The charging station is free right now, but it serves only a few cars at a time with advanced reservations only. There is no way it can serve every employee's cars if they all switch to EVs.

    Besides the high initial cost of EVs, in our region, I just don't see the reason for many to switch to EVs if the rate of electricity and gas price trend does not change. I just received a letter from our Utility that they are requesting a rate increase to PUC. The third installment of an increase in a year. If approved, which I am sure it will, our electricity rate will be around $0.32/kWh. With gas prices nicely coming down and electricity continuing to go up, I am so glad that I have a choice to drive my car on electrons or petro on our PHEV. At moment, every mile driven on electricity costs about 15% more than using gas. It will be close to 20% after the rate increase, provided the gas price stays the same.
     
  13. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Thank you, I understand your comment better now.

    I don’t necessarily agree, but I do understand.
    In my opinion, Toyota needs to make this transition to zero emission vehicles much more quickly for the sake of their shareholders. They are shirking their responsibility because they are not prepared.

    I don’t believe the article went after anyone at the manufacturing level. They targeted the decision makers. The old CEO specifically.

    A major point, for me, was that manufacturers had 7 years advance warning of the emission rules. Plenty of time to design a new vehicle from scratch. They didn’t have much ready, continue pumping out ICE cars to dealers, who can’t sell them.
    This is leading to the crisis many dealers are having in China.
     
  14. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    Who can't sell them due to regulations? I read about this happening in China.
     
  15. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Right now there is no regulatory reason they can’t sell them.
    As of June/July many of these cars can’t be sold, at which time, the cars are worthless. No one wants to buy are car that has a zero resale value.
     
  16. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I agree, it's plenty of time to have done something. We should all be upset that nobody lifted a finger.

    My point is that competitive businesses are absolutely locked into behaving a certain way, and they'll be brutally punished by one part of the market or another (customers or shareholders) if they don't behave that way- and that way makes no allowance for environmentally-rooted rationale.

    Most businesses are conditioned to expect that regulatory deadlines are negotiable. That 7 years could have turned into 15 years or never. The CEO could get canned for spending money to prepare something that is never needed, especially if their competition didn't spend anything on prep. (I used the term manufacturing management- I loosely meant CEOs, upper management and boards)

    The corporate response to regulations and deadlines is utterly predictable. They'll fight it until it comes to pass and at that point they'll go to the shareholders and say "Sorry, we tried to do it your way. Please be assured that we didn't miss anything that our competitors also didn't."

    And that answer keeps working.

    So why attack a CEO for pleasing their shareholders?

    I don't see this changing until the CEO's marching orders are changed away from "Extract all possible value from the market and reward your investors with all haste."
     
    #256 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Apr 2, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2023
  17. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    I was looking into buying in a more populated part of the country as prices here are
    Doesn't Toyota sell cars in Africa, Central and South America and parts of Asia where there's no way the masses will be transitioning to EV's any time soon? Isn't a lot of Japan not at all ready for EV's?

    I've been throughout many parts of Mexico and from what I can see the whole country has 30A 120V service to practically all homes, max. Some places get even less. That means one home can charge at 2.880W max with no other thing using electricity in the whole house. And I've been told by people I know all over the world that it's the same in all Central and South America, or at least most of it, as well as parts of Japan.

    So a car company trying to sell cars worldwide can't just transition 100% to zero emission vehicles. Making fewer ICEV's means the cost of production on those goes up. In other words, it would seem to me that selling EV's to the USA and Europe would make it hard to sell non-EV's elsewhere where it's impossible to sell EV's. Cutting off huge parts of the market just to go all zero emissions I don't think would be great for shareholders.
     
  18. Isaac Zachary

    Isaac Zachary Senior Member

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    If all new cars were EV's (or other zero emissions) then eventually they would become used cars and the used car market would eventually become filled with EV's. It may never become 100% EV, just as you still get the occasional steam car that's sold. But it would eventually come down to a nearly 100% EV society.

    If we need everyone to stop driving ICEV's right now, then maybe we need to start talking about how to make the world a better place for pedestrian traffic and public transportation.
     
  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    I agree with that one whole-heartedly. On the other hand, I've found that most Priuschatters are relatively hostile to public transportation so I tend not to bring it up that often.
     
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  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk EGR Fanatic

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    This. May render the whole transition-to-EV “car”go cult…