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So the inverter powering the motor is used to power the outlets?

The larger size could simply be from a heatsink. The Rav4P charger has its own blower. The old Prius Prime had the charger in a location where it could be cooled by the fans for the battery. Maybe this one could be passively cooled. Or the assembly contains something unrelated to charging. There was only the one photo posted.

 

Old inverter also includes a DC–DC converter for the 12-V battery etc. Perhaps in the new one, this DC–DC converter also has some inverter function for the outlets or there is a small inverter included for that function.

 

Those values are reversed and low. I would expect the 19" to get about 40 miles and 17" somewhere in the upper 40's.

Late really doesn't hold much weight. With the EV market now looking at next-gen platforms and focus shifting to infrastructure.

That lame excuse isn't something I would have expected to hear anymore. Enthusiasts posted that as an evade, trying to avoid the actual issue with the technology itself. GM failed to make it efficient and failed to make it profitable. We all know "Voltec" was expected to spread to a vehicle like Equinox from day one, back when Two-Mode plug-in prototypes were being demoed. Starting in a small hatchback was exactly what the bankruptcy task-force expressed concern about, fearing "too little, too slowly" in terms of moving beyond the initial offering. GM never did. They squandered the opportunity. The ultimate irony is Toyota followed through, continuing to advance the PHEV system as well as spread it to other vehicles... while at the same time, established a BEV system.

 

So, GM cancelled the Impala, Lesabre, and CT-6, models selling about as well and the Avalon and Lexus equivalents, and close down an entire factory, to just have cover for killing off the Volt? I admitted in the post you quoted that GM may have ended up cancelling the Volt anyway, but closing a factory, with causing greater public outcry than cancelling a single model, is not a lame excuse.

The Prius started as an even smaller car, and it wasn't profitable until sometime during the gen2's run. You keep claiming the Volt wasn't profitable, but never supply evidence. GM may have squandered Voltec in North America, but Toyota's spread of hybrid models can't be called rapid. Where would their PHEV program be without ZEV programs and incentives? Without factory incentives in the Northeast, what would Prius Prime sales have been like?

Why would you go there? you think Prius chat is populated by goldfish, and they had forgotten Toyota's history with BEVs. Their first model for sale has only been out about a year. Their first attempt was tinier than a Spark, and failed before reaching dealers. Their compliance BEV was an ICE converted by Tesla. They were crushing their first ZEV program compliance car along side GM with the EV1.

Well, Toyota did have an EV system. Too bad they left off the charger and anchored it with a fuel cell and hydrogen tanks.

 

Yes, typo, they are reversed. However, they are correct. 44-mile BEV range for SE, 36-mile BEV range for XSE and XSE Premium.

 

what? because - it "only" EPA'D 42 on gas? .... though most drivers run it 90% of the time on electric? OK.
And as far as stopping production calling factory closure an evade - how do you explain the loss of the Prius v & Prius c not being an evade - as there were no factories here in the USA building them to get shut down ... thus it's clearly the demise of smaller cars here in the usa.
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If we compare the rav4 prime and wrangler 4xe they have similar towing capacity and battery size but the 4xe needs a lot of work. 4xe Tested: 2021 Jeep Wrangler 4xe Complicates a Simple Machine
Stalantis did the blend the two power sources well which is likely why they are talking about using the engine as a generator, but toyota, porche, hyundai, bmw can do that dance well even with high powered engines.

One problem with the jeep is it is not fully taking advantage of the electric motors. The 4wd system is mechanical which adds unnecessary weight. The jeep is built for driving off road, which necessarily means less efficiency but it does not need to be this bad. Towing and hauling are mainly dependent on torque and solid brakes. Electric motors can do this with less hp, and make mg2 and mg3 powerful enough with a powerful enough battery the load on an hsd would be very low.

If you get rid of a off road requirments on transmission and tires a phev pick up should have similar efficiency to a bev truck. The f150 lightning is 68 mpge, rivian is 64 mpge, and I expect the cyber truck to be around 80 mpge. Let's call it 65 mpge. Put in a 25 kwh battery and if proportial to the rav4 prime, should be able to supply 172 hp electrical hp or 350 hp combined and over 40 miles aer. Mg3 would need to be beefed up as would the inverter. The upcoming mercedes AMG C63 has a small 6.1 kwh battery but can provide 200 hp in bursts and 93 hp continously so for 10 second bursts of towing power a system with a small battery can provide lots of torque and power.

I do think a parellel hybrid system would be better. It allows engine choices. Perhaps a 2L atkinson all the way up to the 3.5L turbo. Ideally since these things are expensive already you could do a 3L 6 with e-turbo and cylinder deactivation for very efficient highway towing and hauling. The above mentioned C63 has a e-turbo which combines an electric super charger/generator and turbocharger in one package. That mercedes is tuned for power but you can tune it for efficiency too. Extra power at minimum efficiency can be stored in the battery instead of wasted.

back to the prius prime, it could easily be made with a tow rating in awd configuration.

 

A thousand pounds difference is similar?

The generator talk is in reference to their BEV pick up. Sounds like it will have a range extender option. I saw EREV used; Ram marketing had their own phrase for it. The official name of the truck is Ram 1500 REV. Has a 800V architecture for the battery, and that is it in terms of technical info that has been released. With an EV range over 100 miles, a series hybrid would be the simplest option.

It is a Jeep. They could make an electric drive train as fully capable as their mechanical, but that would take a bigger budget than for a parallel PHEV.

The Adventure and TRD Rav4 match the Wrangler Unlimited in tow rating without any electric motors and less power than the Prime because of their mechanical AWD and vector braking system

PHEVs tend to have lower efficiency than BEVs. The Wrangler though is just bad to begin. An utility inspired body that hasn't changed much since the 1950's with knobby tires, and high ground clearance for even the 2WD model is the antithesis of efficient car design. Change it, and it is no longer a Wrangler though.

Can the gen5 Prius tow? The gen4 was rated (IIRC) 725kg in Europe. The PHV was zero; the battery effectively uses up the weight carrying capacity for a trailer tongue. The Prius rating is lower than cars a size class or two smaller. Toyota is protective of the transaxle. Is there any info on the gen5's hybrid system being more robust in terms of duty cycle?

A rear motor will help; it's why early SUV hybrids even had a tow rating. Could one and its power control unit fit in the new Prime? The new battery placement shifts car weight away from the rear, so some level of tow rating is more possible than in the gen4, even without AWD.

 

I'd like to hear more about how someone would "easily" make an AWD configuration Prius Prime with a significant tow rating. A towing capacity of 1,500 pounds would be a good starting point, since that's what the RAV4 base model is rated. I was going to match the Tesla M3 specs, but when I looked up the Tesla Model3 tow rating it does not appear to be approved for towing in the US.

Does anyone have any idea why the M3 and the Prius Prime are not rated for towing in the US?

 

The gen IV Prius is rated at 1598lbs in europe the Tesla model 3 is rated at 2000 lbs there neither car has a tow rating in the US. The tesla model Y which has the same powertrain as the tesla model 3 has a tow rating of 3500 lbs in the US.

I am sure the next gen prius prime awd if they properly designed it would have plenty of torque to tow, as long as control laws (the software) didn't over stress the hsd.

Europe is different for towing because drivers tow at lower speeds. Some claim its the speed limit but towing speed limits in the US are often ignored - though are between 55 mph and 65 mph depending on state. In Germany for example the speed limit for towing is 80 kph (50 mph) with a higher limit exemption with a trailer rated for it of 100 kph (62 mph) . Since the car needs to be able to maneuver and stop. Europe also doesn't have the large lawsuits the US has. I have seen trucks with trailers bounding down i10 in west texas going 90 mph or faster (speed limit is 80 mph, towing speed limit is 60 mph day, 55 mph night) that puts a lot more stress on the vehicle than 60 mph. Still I think part of the reason is that toyota would rather sell you a more expensive rav4 than a prius, and tesla would rather sell you a more expensive model Y with tow package than a model 3. Part of it could be the chassis also.

The gen 5 prius and prime also have a much higher skid pad (traction) which means a load will be easier to control, plus . I don't expect them to tow rate it in the US but they could.

I goofed, googled rav4 prime towing and it came up with 3500 lbs, that really is for the adventure and trd that have a limited slip rear differential and 100 hp split possible to the rear wheels. Toyota does not provide this option to the prime, but they have plenty of battery if the proper inverter, motor, and differencial was used to provide this power and control. The prime has a towing capacity of 2500 lbs, while the AWD Rav4 is only 1500 lb. That awd rav4 has the same engine, motors, and trasmission gears as the adventure/trd but different awd system. The main difference is that electrically coupled lsd on the rear and a more robust engine cooler and larger alternator to provide power to the trailer. A similar package with power powerful mg3 and rear inverter could be available or standard on a prius awd or rav4 prime.

A series phev still is a complicated thing. why not let the engine which makes it more expensive, have the ability to drive the wheels. You still need an engine and MG although you can eliminate the starter/alternator along with beefier motors and inverters. It is much easier to just put a small mg and between the engine and transmission on a standard truck or SUV. That is what ford and toyota have done with their hybrid trucks, I believe that mg is 48 hp. I believe for ram pick ups the transmission and fluids weigh just under 200 lbs. For a phev pick up trucks next benefit would be to drop the mechanical awd system put a mg on the front axle and a larger mg between the motor and transmission. That would likely shave a lot of weight and provide better control of the power split than a mechanical transfer case. Finally the truck could be converted to fwd saving more weight with the mg powering a rear limited slip differential. I don't see any benefit other than engineering resources and up front cost for a detached ice in a high power suv or pick up truck. For lower power that ice as a generator only makes some sense because fuel savings may not overcome the added cost quickly.

 

I thought the S and 3 had a tow rating in the US up and to their SUV sibling came out.

Combine weight ratings and what the frame can support are also something to consider. The Rav4 Prime is nearly 700 pounds heavier than the TRD. That covers a big part of the difference in their tow ratings. That battery weight, and where it is installed, is likely why the gen4Prime was rated zero. No AWD for the gen5 Prime, but likely wouldn't make a difference. The frame likely needs to be reinforced more than the extra weight of the battery.

Europe(UK) has different regulations on how to load a trailer towed by a car. More weight is packed over the trailer axle. This means less weight carried by the car itself, thus less strain on its frame. It also means the trailer becomes unstable at higher speeds. Their towing speed limits aren't just for safety, but also dictated by the laws of physics. In the US, the load is carried closer to the car. That puts more weight on the car, but allows for the trailer to be stable at higher speeds. Load the trailer like it would in Europe, and the American wouldn't be able to speed while towing. They'll be in a ditch.

Europe also requires trailer brakes at 500kg. Only two or three states have such a requirement at 1000 pounds. The rest are 2000 pounds or higher.

Ram doesn't have a hybrid pick up though. The series hybrid rumors are concerning the BEV model coming out. There is little details on just the BEV side. 350kW charging with a range and tow rating target of 500 miles and 10k pounds. A EREV version will likely have at least 200 miles of grid range. The generator will likely go into the frunk. Another hybrid type will allow better efficiency, but likely would require more batteries and one of the motor units pulled out. I don't think Ram's design goal is an efficient hybrid, but a solution to the current lack of 350kW chargers.

It is possible this range extender will a series hybrid in the Volt sense. Jeep has a parallel system, and the upcoming Hornet PHEV is through the road. Series just seems more likely when starting with a BEV.
2025 Ram 1500 REV: What We Know So Far
Ram 1500 EV Will Offer a Range Extender Gas Engine, CEO Confirms

 

This is doubtful. The frame of a rav4 should be sturdy enough for that weight. The regular rav4 and adventure have the same engine and transmission. The difference is better engine cooling, stronger alternator, and transfer case. The adventure transfer case has a magnetically coupled limited slip differential on the rear axle. They just don't offer a beefed up tow package on the rav4 prime, mainly because why add an option when dealers are already short and marking them up. For the additional weight for towing maybe it needs better brakes, I don't know, but trailers in most states are going to require brakes. In texas for going over 30 mph you need trailer brakes when combined weight of the vehicle and trailer are more than 4500 lbs. That is a very light trailer without brakes, but the vehicles brakes need to be able to stop the trailer if its brakes fail.

We have the ford patent for a removable tool box generator that can power the truck, charge the batteries, etc. I can see these things being rented out and makes sense. The ford F150 lightning frunk is important and they don't want to reduce the utility by putting the generator there.

For the Ram, series is only a rumor. That was what gm originally thought of the volt, then found real world efficiency was too low. A pickup pulling a 10,000 lb trailer is going to be using around 100 kw when going 70 on flat ground. If it is series and takes up the frunk I doubt they will make or sell many, and will require a more powerful engine and generator than if it can be directly coupled to an axle at higher speeds.

The primary purpose is long distance travel or towing. We will see when it comes out. If it is a series phev I expect the mpg will be pretty bad, but who knows. The pacifica hybrid had reliability issues, but maybe they worked out the kinks by now, or can put it or a different fwd traditional automatic in line. We are probably talking about an over $60K phev truck, that money to put in a psd or traditional transmission won't change price to customer much, but could greatly improve fuel costs. A system like hyundai's wouldn't cost them much.

 

From the manuals, the gross combination weights of the Rav4 with tow package is 8205 lbs and Rav4 Prime is 8030 lbs. That difference with the difference in curb weight is around 900 lbs. Round it up, and it explains the difference between the tow ratings. Assuming the Prime isn't already equipped with the equipment of the tow package, its tow rating could bump up to 2700 lbs. Getting to 3500 lbs would entail Toyota signing off on a higher gross combination weight before considering if it needs anything else for towing the heavier weight.

You will lose the frunk with any type of PHEV. A removable generator of battery pack will reduce the utility of the bed. These are the type of compromises that are made with a PHEV.

I don't think they are worried about fuel efficiency too much, and if the actual truck is as they are hinting, the extra fuel use for some times trips may not be bad overall. I stated 200 miles as a minimum EV range I see this truck having, but Dodge is talking 500+ for the BEV. With a trailer, the range will drop to something like 200 to 250 miles. The range extender can add 100 to 200 per tank.

It may not be the best implication, but I think the real goal here is to combat range anxiety with towing. Most people buying a pick up don't really need it. Those that do will buy the diesel.

Their through the road hybrid Hornet with 2L is a little worse in fuel efficiency than the first Outlander PHEV in hybrid mode. The Wrangler 4xe is a worse than the ICE model with the same engine. I wouldn't expect much from a non-series hybrid the Ram EV.

 

A lot of patents are filed only to keep the competition from using the underlying ideas.

 

Definitely true. The idea is kind of generic but putting a self contained generator in a toolbox that can slide on truck rails and plug into a standard ccs socket is patentable. The question really is how much it will cost to produce and if it will be too heavy for a truck buyer to add and remove it themselves.

I like this idea much better than the ram truck generator under the hood idea, because it doesn't take up the frunk and exhaust gasses and radiator do not need to be plumbed in the vehicle. It has the same efficiency disadvantage as the ram generator, but being removable it can be shared or rented and taken off when a longer truck bed is wanted or to save weight. Both solve the towing problem, but if its there all the time why not make it more efficient and let it drive the wheels?

We are out of my depth never saw the gross combination weight, I really have no idea, but I doubt it can't tow. As you see it is not the hsd that is stopping it. The slightly different system using the similar 2.5L engine in the highlander hybrid can tow 3500lbs.

 

The AWD Highlander hybrid has always been able to tow that amount, and I now think the Rav4 Prime could, if you could reduce it's curb weight by about 700 pounds. The story was different in the FWD versions. When they were briefly available in the US, the FWD Highlander, RX, and NX all had tow ratings of zero. In Australia(similar tow regs as EU), the FWD Rav4 hybrid has a lower tow rating than even the FWD ICE model. 2023 Toyota RAV4 Towing Capacity | CarsGuide

Something about the power-split system keeps it from being used in heavy duty roles. This isn't just Toyota thing, I remember Ford power-splits and two mode trucks having lower tow rating than the ICE models. The difference was too big for curb weight differences to explain two mode. I think Toyota tried to address this with the Lexus multi-mode system, but that ended up more costly than going with a parallel hybrid.

 

For me the biggest improvement is TSS 3.0+. Yours was TSS 1.0, which was Level 1. TSS 3.0+ and Tesla systems are Level 2–3 (perhaps call them Level 2.5)—Tesla wanting to sell it as Level 3.

However, mpg and mpge disappoint, especially on the XSE and XSE Premium.

Let's hope that it does have a true BEV mode in which the defogger doesn't start the ICE engine as in Gen 4.

Improved BEV range is most welcome for those who need it.

 

turning on chemestry - all batteries' performance characteristics benefit from scavenging ice heat to increase operational temperatures. Fun fact .... in the early days of electric cars (1990s) GM came up with a novel idea to keep their electric S10 pickup passengers warm - as well as its windows defrosted. It had a teeny little 1.7 gallon diesel tank & motor. The heater/defroster worked great!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_S-10_EV

Disney leased a few of these & having retired from there (& got to use these EV's regularly) it was my gateway drug on to better things
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Toyota has lost any semblance of sanity IMHO. They're pricing this generation at $10,000 over what I paid for my 2021, and that's with the loss of the $4,500 Federal tax credit. Dealers are currently marking the 2023 Prime up by $10,000 over that. The dealership near me is advertising a 2023 XSE for $47,500. Why would I pay as much for one 2023 Prius Prime as would have bought me 2 2021 Prius Primes? That's just absurd on its face.

How on Earth any sane person could imagine that a car that sold poorly at $25,000 with a $4,500 tax credit is going to do better at $35,000 with no tax credit and huge dealer markups is beyond me. All those stimulus payments to individuals and businesses are gone, but the pricing is as if it was a permanent boost to everyone's income. Yeah, everyone had a few extra $$$ last year but that was completely destroyed by the inflation it created and then some.

I still think Toyota's going to try and ride this "shortage" for as long as they can keep corporate profits at their current record highs. It's not going to last long with Tesla and GM selling vehicles in the same class for less than Toyota, and they're both ramping up production.

Maybe a Bolt isn't quite a Prius Prime, but a $20,000 out of pocket difference in price makes up for a lot. The Model Y is now price competitive with a RAV4 Prime after tax credits are accounted for.

I can't see how this strategy won't bite Toyota in the long run.