What features would make you jump ship?

Gokhan - reading between the lines of last few posts it almost seems as if you're suggesting the best way to charge 2023 Prime is with a 220 volt outlet. Since you seem more concerned about having the Prime battery in the proper *drainage range" before re-charging.

Seems most owners of a plug-in want a fully charged battery come morning commute. I'm not in that category but one has to wonder how many morning commuters are going to plug their Prime in before they hit the hay. If I'm reading your comments correctly, almost seems you'd prefer drivers re-charge their hybrid say at 5 am to 7am with a 220 volt and then take off when battery is charged. Now I don't know how long a 220 outlet takes to charge battery, but if I do purchase I'm sticking with 110 volt and probably connect late in evening. Since I guessing it would take several hours for the 110 connection to fully charge battery.

My assumption is 90% of all daily drivers of plug-ins likely return home with a fully discharged battery. So re-charging is going to be in most cases in the evening or over night. Be it with a 110 or 220 volt connection.
So question is does leaving hybrid plugged in (with charge depleted) for say 10 to 12 hours do any long term harm to battery. I'm thinking low voltage will not do any damage (could be wrong) but maybe higher and faster 220 volt charge could.

Really starting to wonder how thick the Prime operation manual is going to be.

 

for someone with a steady routine like a work commute, you simply plug the car in, set the 'finish time', and the software takes care of the rest.
elegantly simple

 

It’s a matter of opinion, I suppose… I understand your point, however in a PHEV like the Prime, losing a bit of capacity will simply result in slightly more usage of the ICE, which will be a minimal cost difference overall, depending on your cost difference between gas and electricity. As long as the battery is not reaching point of failure, of course.

I do agree about avoiding excessive charge when storing.

Just my opinion.

 

Ok, light just came on.
So is there two ways to charge a PHEV.
1. Insert plug cable to power outlet and then hybrid charge port. Stand back and let charging begin?
and/or
2. Set up software controlled charge time (after completing step 1) that activates battery charging at pre-determined times.

So going the "scheduled charging" route takes away over charging and repeated plug in - plug out rendezvous with PHEW at odd hours.

 

Personally, my only concern is are the new seats/material comfortable or not and the 2nd, do I need the Mirror camera that is only on the Limited.

 

As I said, there is a charge schedule on the car, which you should use for morning commutes.

It is not 110 V and 220 V in North America. It is 120 V and 2 × 120 V = 240 V.

I wouldn't worry much about 120 V vs. 240V. There was a study saying that Level 2 (240 V) charging is slightly easier on the battery than Level 1 (120 V) charging, but the effect was small. Gen 5 Prius Prime should take about 8 hr to charge at 120 V vs. 5 hr for Gen 4. It is not clear how long Level 2 charging will take, but it was 2 hr 10 min for Gen 4.

 

Yes, but many people find it quite annoying for the ICE to kick in just when you are about the enter your garage. Moreover, many are worried that running the ICE only briefly or for short periods is bad for it.

 

Hi Sue,

You got it. Also, the charging schedule can be programmed for either START time (if you have lower off-peak rates you want to wait for), or END time if you have a regular schedule and want to maximize battery health by having the battery reach full charge as close to driving time as possible. (Since this minimized the time sitting at max charge, and also warms the battery before usage which can also help energy efficiency and battery health).

For people with regular schedules, it is basically “set it and forget it”; just plug in whenever you come home and the schedule can take care of the rest.

As a point of reference, in my 2014 Plug In Prius (with a tiny 4.4KWh battery / ~2.6KWh usable), I estimate it has declined roughly 10% in capacity in the 7 years I have owned it, over the 210K KM (~131K miles) it has driven (170K KM or ~106K miles since I bought it). It is difficult to measure the actual accurate loss, since it is such a small battery and the fluctuation of the HV portion of the battery makes it difficult to be precise. I know when I first got the car, my ChargePoint would register about 2.6-2.7KWh of energy per charge, while now it is usually about 2.4-2.5KWh, but occasionally reaches 2.6 (likely when the hybrid portion of the battery is lower when arriving home, so it can squeeze more energy in). With the newer Prime models, I am sure this varying effect would be lessened, since the ~1KWh hybrid portion is a much lower % of the larger 8.8KWh battery.

In terms of charging behaviour, I never really babied the charge schedule; for the first 3-4 years, I would generally charge it at 7-8pm (off-peak) on Level 2, then switch and charge our Leaf on the Level 2 overnight, as we were both commuting 5 days a week. So, the Prius almost always sat at full charge overnight. Since 2019 I have been mostly working from home so I charged it less frequently, but would also leave it fully charged for a few days sometimes, if I ended up not going out as I had planned, etc. My driving patterns have reduced dramatically in the past few years, partly due to Covid, but I was already working remotely before that.

I am generally pretty neurotic about care for my vehicle (and still do things like park far away in parking lots to avoid dings, even though the car is old now… but still virtually immaculate body panels as a result ); I was less careful with the charging pattern, since this was meant to be a “temporary” car when I bought it in 2016 to bridge me until the Prime was available, as my 2006 had given out and needed major repairs. The original plan was to keep it 2-3 years then trade up, but I hesitated with the early Prime with 4 seats and no CarPlay, etc, then life got in the way; finances changed, then Covid, and here we are 7 years later…. However, if I was sitting here with a 2-4 year old car, it would not be realistic for me to be talking about trading up at this time - I am too frugal for that (assuming normal depreciation, I know the market is still crazy) - so life comes full circle I guess.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, but thought you might find an anecdotal story about the relatively low battery degradation interesting to put your mind at ease.

Cheers.

 

Agreed, and I do find it annoying as well, but also not a big deal.

However, from experience I have learned that if I find myself in the situation where my EV range ran just short and the engine fired up just as a I was arriving at my destination I find it best to let it run for at least 30 seconds to a minute before shutting the car down to allow the oil to circulate properly and warm a bit, otherwise I would often get a rough start the next time I run the engine. I am sure it isn’t causing any real damage, but just doesn’t feel good and letting the engine properly lubricate seems like the right thing to do in that situation.

Also, if I know I am driving beyond the EV range, I generally manually turn on the engine at an ideal time (such a cruising at a consistent speed) to allow it to warm up in a low-demand situation (rather than high demand like accelerating onto a highway), while also not “wasting” fuel doing it sitting still. At least SOME of the energy burned to warm up the engine will be used to move me forward.

 

@Sue Case In the gen 4 Prime there are 4 ways to start the plugin charge. If the charge schedule is not set, there is only one (1) in your post.
If the schedule has been setup there are 3 ways to start the plugin charge.
1 - Plug the handle into the port and let the car - activate charging to the charge schedule setup time -, either start charge time or finish charge time.
2 - After turning off the Prime, disable the schedule and choose Start Charge Now - by using the right steering wheel direction toggle ring (scroll left or right) scrolling off the default MID driving score screen to the only other screen available when the Prime is Off, the charge schedule override screen and pressing the button in the center of the toggle ring.
3 - If your schedule is setup and the car is locked and you just want to start the charge and override the schedule, the process goes like so, plug the handle into the port, wait for the green light on the cars charge port to light up, unplug and replug the handle within around 5 seconds, hear the click on the charge cable brick, and watch through the passenger door window for the blue LED(s) on the dash to light up and start blinking.
rinse, repeat as necessary until hearing the brick click and the LED(s) light up.

The 220 volt charge is still on the slow side and charges at a max of 9 amps for a very short time. less than 1 - 5 minutes if the pack is sitting at --- 0 EV mile left. You'll only see 8+ amps when starting a charge with the battery half full, which is a fairly normal rate of charge in the gen 4 Prime charging at 220 volts. And if you watch the charge during the two hours for a full charge (DrPrius app), you'll see the rate or charge ramp down at different intervals through out that time (per the Primes charging Programming).
At 120 volts max Amps is around 3 Amps. If you want even slower charging the charge rate can be lowered in the MID's Charge options screen to the 8 Amp setting instead of the default Max setting. At the 8 Amp setting it will take approximately twice as long as a normal charge on the Max setting, at both 120 volts and 220 / 240 volts.
( Charge mode ) to 80% of full charge (SOC), on the other hand will charge the pack at around twice the speed of 220 / 240 volts on the Max setting and can go up higher than 20 Amps for short periods of time since it is not a steady stream ( so to speak) of charge like one gets from connecting to the grid ie: the 120 volt outlet.
Doing charge mode everyday, especially in winter (freezing temps) might show battery pack degradation early. Most of us are confident that charging at 220 volt will not adversely effect the traction pack life span.
On the other hand it is also well established that charging slower is better, if you have to time and inclination.

 

Thanks - since the Prime battery is so much smaller then EV batteries, I thought it would recharge a lot quicker be it 120 volt or 220/240 volt. Now I know differently. I still see cost savings and "some" positive climate related issues going PHEW, but obviously just driving a pure hybrid (no plug-in) is way less complicated. The pre-set charging times are a major plus as long as you can figure out when its needed (in advance). Obviously if some one does a half-way job charging a PHEW, there probably better off going with just a straight hybrid.

 

There are a lot of tricks to getting every bit of efficiency from the Prime, some better than others, but there is nothing wrong I can think of with using 50% SOC one day and drive it the next day to 0% SOC or wherever the SOC ends up on a trip or set of trips. Or charging from any % SOC till full or any SOC than unplugging and drive. It doesn't make a difference to the car. The charging programming takes care of the intricate details of what happens when the EVSEs handle gets plugged into the cars charge port. If I got your meaning about when a regular prius might be a better fit.

 

This plug-in strategy thing is one of the main reasons I prefer a hybrid. I’m sure you get used to it, establish routines, but it is more complexity.

 

It can be as complex or as simple as the individual would like it. No one say you have to plugin a Prime. The cars programming will handle that too.
Of course gen 4 Prime has no spare tire. That is a big one for some.

 

..If I may add regarding charging in winter in polar temp, I activate the battery heater function , and plug in the car every day to activate this function. Mind you my charge schedule is set for every 2 days for my needs. Since the car is plugged in the BMS will activate the brick to power the heater when nedeed by the system . Since the traction battery heater is powered by the 12V system , the on board charger will provide 12V power from the DC to DC converter to maintain an adequate charge of the 12V system .So the car will activate the brick even if it is not time for charging the traction battery, keeping the traction battery and the 12V battery happy. When this is happening ( traction battery heating) you will hear a slight buzzing under the hood (inverter ) and no blue charging lights on. Traction battery heater consumes around 200 watts and will operate to keep the traction above freezing temp and will turn off around 40 F IIRC
EDIT I don't know why it is written in blue

Mod: Fixed it for you

 

for someone who drives as little as yourself, it would probably be a pain.

even though you and i have similar miles per year, i have a routine every day, which makes charging very simple

 

Apologies for posting a long technical post and not explaining (Charge Mode) more, especially for newer owners whom might not even know about it's existence yet. So let me give a brief description here.

When driving the Prime, by holding down the EV / HV button for 5 seconds the Prime will switch into Charge Mode. When in Charge Mode the ICE will start (if it is not already running) and begin to charge the Traction Pack at about twice the speed of Level 2 (220/240 volt) charging. It will continue charging up until the traction pack reaches 80% SOC or 80% of what is normal a full charge (100% SOC) when Plugged In. Charge Mode can also be switched off at any time by pushing the EV/HV button. If Charge Mode is turned off by pressing the EV / HV button the Prime will switch back into EV mode if there is at least 1% SOC for EV mode to use. If there is not 1% SOC it will switch back into HV mode.

@Louis19 I think your description of how the traction pack heater work when ambient temps are below freezing is excellent, as is your description of your charge scheduling preference. Thanks.

 

Here is my plugin routine.
Arrive at home, plug in car.
When leaving home, I unplug the car and go.

As others have mentioned, it can be very simple.
Not buying a plug-in because of the complexity of charging would be similar to not buying a hybrid because of the complexity of pulse and glide.

 

Well, you can't over charge the battery. The system stops charging when the battery reaches full, which isn't truly the battery's max capacity.

Seat comfort is why I left Toyota.

Some are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Being obsessive about car care and maintenance can extend the time the car looks and runs like new. Not being obsessive doesn't mean the car will die an early death though.

 

+1 on this.

It only needs to be as complex as you want it to be; mainly for the people who seek out a site like this to squeeze out every last bit of efficiency.

To keep it simple, one can just plug it in whenever there is an opportunity to do so, then just start the car and drive it, and the computer will still do a wonderful job of managing things, and you will save gas and money no matter what happens, compared to a similar gas car.

The PHEV really is the best of both worlds (EV experience with no range anxiety at all), IMO.