Suddenly getting misfires on all four cylinders

Discussion in 'Prius v Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by wrench, Sep 17, 2022.

  1. CR94

    CR94 Senior Member

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    Were the hydraulic adjusters at the fulcrum end of the arms functional? I don't understand how rocker arms can come off.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Were the hydraulic adjusters at the fulcrum end of the arms *present*?

    *That* is an easy question to answer, by angling your gaze down at the crankshaft harmonic damper while trying to start.
     
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  3. wrench

    wrench Member

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    Yeah, checking the harmonic dampener is on the list, but I have to be careful. I don't want to over tax my HV battery now that I know it is kind of like the "don't screw with me" pin in the railroad hitch. :(

    Yes, the hydraulic adjusters are present, but it is a good question. As for how the rockers came off... That is, indeed, the question. I have NO friggin idea. It just seems completely contradictory to me.
     
  4. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    I could imagine a scenario where the valves hit the pistons and the rockers came off. Or whoever machined your head took everything apart and did not label where the individual parts came from. I think you are at pull the head time and with it, the timing chain, no matter what.

    I would certainly check the cylinders with a borescope while rotating the engine by hand.

    The real question is do you go to that much trouble or just buy and install the Hybrid Pit rebuilt engine? You seem to have already lost the gunfight at the O.K. Corral.
     
  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Witness Leader

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    Whatever the outcome, it beats the impasse you were at. Good that you’re treading cautiously.
     
  6. wrench

    wrench Member

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    I'm bending towards the 'replace' option right now, but I'm not quite done researching. Frankly, the one thing that baffles the hell out of me is the "how" part of all this. I can accept that the engine may be toast, but I'd like to understand the failure. This engine was running as smoothly as a kitten purring for about 15K miles after the head job, and 2K thereafter with it still running smoothly but throwing misfire codes at highway speeds. To suddenly have pistons hitting valves would mean that *something* drastic changed. I can't figure out what that is... The chain isn't loose so I don't think it skipped a tooth, although I'll still check the witness marks to confirm timing once I have the time to get the harmonic dampener off.

    I've wondered about the tappets, but the same guys are used on the exhaust as the intake, so I don't think the shop screwed that up. And it is a well regarded shop that does a lot of work too. Could they have messed up? Sure, but I'd say it is more likely I did something stupid than they did. I never had the cams out of the head, though, so if there is a problem with valves, guides, tappets, etc, that is the shop.

    15K miles is a lot, I think, of miles for nothing to rear its ugly head. Maybe we'll never understand the 'how and why' of it all, but failure analysis is pretty much a hallmark of any engineering. It is beaten into my soul, and if I ever want to get a good night's sleep in the next month, I'd like to figure this one out. :(. And the P0011 code is still a mystery to me (unless the crank splines are broken off)

    FWIW, if I do go down the replace route (again, I'm pretty much assuming that will be the case now), this puppy is going to come apart. I'm seriously curious what I'll find. I'll post here if you all are interested.
     
  7. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Performing a Root Cause / Failure Mode Analysis is always a good idea in an industrial analysis when trying to understand an unexpected failure. In my working experience it sometimes never becomes clear but repeated incidents often present a pattern. I would expect you will find other broken parts. One of them, possibly the rocker installation, will point to a timing fault.

    We do know these engines will run with bent connecting rods and slightly off timing chains. Until they further fail. Your case seems to be different variation.

    In this video, the suggested hg symptoms seem to include losing significant coolant. That is not always the case in the beginning. Too often a simple hg replacement fails and the results include broken parts and or holes in the block.
     
    #87 rjparker, Dec 21, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
  8. wrench

    wrench Member

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    yep.... There certainly is no harm in taking something apart that is toast though.

    Oh, I forgot to mention that all of the plugs look normal. There is no steam cleaning on any of them. I haven't gotten a chance to put a cheapo video endoscope down into the cylinders. I don't have a "real" borescope, and I'm not totally sure how the common Amazon video scopes will work for this, but I'll find out.

    You know, it is interesting.... I thought the mid 2014 prius cars had the improved engine. But GasketMasters seems to point to 2015 as the transition year. Maybe they changed the Prius V before the other Priuses (or Pri-I, Prii, whatever)?
     
  9. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Witness Leader

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    I believe it was somewhere through model year 2014 the Prius hatchback pistons and rings were changed. With Prius v it's "similar". Specifically, it's per the VIN numbers in attached:
     

    Attached Files:

  10. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    New pistons and rings in mid 2014 were standard on all variations. 2015 is the last gen3 for hatchbacks while 2017 was the last gen3 in a v.

    Toyota admitted bad rings on the 2010-2014 Prius engines and changed the parts free if high oil consumption occurred during warranty. High consumption was defined as a quart every 1200 miles or worse, which almost never happened during the powertrain warranty. Nevertheless, low tension piston rings were a problem on many Toyota models of the era. One of their issues was excessive blowby whose symptoms include oil in the intake manifold. Excessive oil consumption came later in the engines life. 5k oil changes are now recommended by most Toyota mechanics and other experienced professionals for these engines, especially if started early in the engine's life.

    Often the best explanation of a previous generation's faults lies in an examination of the next generation's changes. In other products the improvements are often used in marketing. Not with Toyota, probably due to liability concerns.

    Gen4 Cylinder Wall Cooling Improvements
    EFF4C40C-145B-492F-ACE5-DC224785F277.jpeg
    A new large volume gen4 EGR system was designed to pull exhaust gases from downstream of the cat rather than before the cat as used in gen3. New intakes and piston designs were incorporated in gen4.
     
    #90 rjparker, Dec 21, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
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  11. wrench

    wrench Member

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    darn.... I bought the second V as a 2014 (post S/N) because I thought it had a substantially improved engine. It looks like this is just the block side though (reducing oil consumption). I guess I get to look forward to head gaskets for #2 in the future too. Sigh. It is already a done deal, and I am not about to buy another one in this market. I was lucky to do (fairly) well with what I got. Just in time too... it will now be serving double duty as my "charge station" for the non-functional Prius.
     
    #91 wrench, Dec 21, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
  12. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    We see far less hg problems on the post ring vins. A v inherently has appeal due to cargo space, a better highway ride with pitch and bounce control and 16" tires. Ideally its a 2015-17 facelift version with improved radio and crash test ratings.

    There are cost of ownership advantages buying used even if an engine around 200k becomes necessary. I hate seeing uber and delivery buyers buying one for their livelyhood, especially now in an overpriced market just because they currently look and drive good.

    Change the oil at 5k mile intervals like your wallet depends on it.
     
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  13. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Witness Leader

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    For 3rd gen, Toyota Canada says 8000 kms (roughly 5K miles) OR 6 months, whichever comes first. Accordingly I'm doing the oil every spring and fall. Yearly kms are about 3000... :whistle:

    I'm not so sure the 2015's have a "get out of jail free" card for head gasket issues. Clean dem EGR's. (y)
     
  14. wrench

    wrench Member

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    I'm good with the mileage part.... I'm NOT good with the 6 months though. :-(. Mea Culpa there.

    So... Education opportunity here... How is the EGR going to introduce a higher head gasket failure rate?
     
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  15. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    Its kind of like the LBJ killed JFK conspiracy theories, in this case uneven distribution of egr gasses due to egr intake port clogging. Toyota and their Master mechanics say do nothing unless you get an egr code. A symptom, not a cause.
     
  16. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Witness Leader

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    Ok, my conspiracy theory:

    Exhaust Gas Recirculation was introduced lintroduced in gen 3 to lower emissions. It also has a damping effect on combustion chamber temps, flattening/broadening the temp spike. The engineers are striving for maximum efficiency, use air/fuel ratios, valve timing and all to achieve this, relying on the damping effect of the EGR system, to keep from going too far. Kind of like an interference engine: it works, but only as long as nothing goes awry.

    The problem: the 3rd gen EGR system can have overall reduced exhaust gas flow (due to progressive clogging of the cooler/valve assembly, and, local to particular cylinder(s), near-zero flow (due to virtually complete clogging of the EGR capillary passages in the intake manifold, one per intake port). The latter usually clogs progressively starting at cylinder one (passenger side).

    End result of an engine with blocked EGR flow is more abrupt and higher temp pulses, with each combustion. My 2 cents, that's what's toasting third gen head gaskets.

    Corroboration:

    1. The 3rd gen gasket failures are almost without fail at the thin wall between cylinders one and two, the same order as the intake manifold EGR passage clogging sequence.

    2. The clogging goes from modest to moderate somewhere between 100~150K miles. And that's when the head gaskets start failing.

    3. There's a few members here periodically cleaning the EGR, and AFAIK, have had no head gasket failures.

    There are reports where owners have left it, say till around 150k miles or more, begin to get cold-start shakes, and then get into EGR cleaning. Which is closing the barn door after the horses have bolted?

    4. 4th gen has essentially the same engine, but a revised EGR, with significant increase in cross-section, inlet moved from exhaust manifold to downstream of the Cat, and likely revised programming.

    @jerrymildred (working at Tampa Hybrids) was tasked with cleaning a 4th gen owner's EGR components, and reported it pretty much a wasted effort, it was so clean still. And this was over 300K miles IIRC.

    AFAIK there has not been a single instance of head gasket failure in a fourth gen reported here. There has been a rash of exhaust heat recovery failures, that also causes coolant drop, so lots of false alarms.
     
    #96 Mendel Leisk, Dec 21, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2022
  17. wrench

    wrench Member

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    Interesting... thanks for the detailed rationale.

    FWIW, my HG failed at 103K. I changed the oil pretty regularly (but on mileage, not time). When I did the job, the passages on the intake manifold were very clean. I did work on them nonetheless, but I didn't have anything like the goo that I've seen on YouTube. I also cleaned the EGR valve and intercooler. Those were also both pretty clean. Yeah, they had some crud in them, but nothing I'd call horrible or which occluded the passages at all.
     
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  18. wrench

    wrench Member

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    OK.... that wasn't fun but it had to be done! I temporarily moved the HV battery of my dead V over to my live V so that I could give it a charge. I now have about 75% or so, which should give me enough to do testing and whatever repair is in order. And, yes, that is probably going to be an engine replacement. I feel a LOT better about not having to worry that I might draw too much out of my HV battery. Yeah, I *could* fix that, but it would be a real pain in the rear.
     
  19. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    For my money changing the hv battery cells is far easier than replacing an engine or worse yet, changing a head gasket in the car.
     
  20. wrench

    wrench Member

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    True... But having to deal with a dead HV battery as a result of my having poorly managed my engine issues would be rubbing salt into the wound