Featured 2023 Kia Niro Hybrid Starts Just under $28,000

Don't be a knucklehead...We are talking about the DCT reliability vs. a planetary gearset implementation. And I'm pretty sure you know that.

And all other hybrids also have inverters as well.

And as for your bit about the recalls, there are orders of magnitude more Prius out there than any other hybrid...

 

I didn't feel the poster was being disingenuous.

It is interesting how whenever a discussion is taking place about a certain vehicle and transmission - two people invariably have to turn the discussions on themselves and their feelings on a particular transmission rather than just let people discuss the vehicle.

I think everyone is very aware of your feelings and the other individual who agrees with you on the subject. For many individuals the discussion would be a chance to self-reflect and maybe learn something new rather than a battle to the death to be won or lost.

 

How far will that planetary gear set/transaxle/PSD get you without a working M/G1?

The simplicity of the HSD transaxle being a reliability advantage going back to at least the the gen2 Prius. The transaxle is not the whole hybrid system though. It isn't even the whole of the car's transmission. The continously variable gear ratios that allow the engine to work in its efficient band is achieved by the transaxle working together with M/G1. Which requires more software computing power to pull off than the first electronic automatics had at their disposal. Just because the transaxle just has a few moving parts doesn't mean the system isn't complex.

Hyundai/Kia have greatly improved their reliability over the past couple decades. I don't recall news of major issues with the step auto parallel hybrid that was in the Sonata/Optima for two generations before the Ioniq/Niro arrival. Same with their DCT parallel hybrids. While I think the odds of a Toyota having an issue is less than in the Hyundai/Kia, the difference isn't something to keep me from considering one, or recommending against them Have you heard of any issues to change that assessment?

 

Reminds me of a Hyundai hybrid test drive I once took because of claimed advantage over the HSD. Returning to 'stepped' transmission mode made me a little car sick. Soon as I could, I turned around and ended the test drive. Then there was the Honda CVT test that never started.

Just getting in the Honda CVT, I hit my head hard enough to see 'stars.' Then while recovering, I felt like I was in an coffin, it was so close. In contrast, our Prius felt spacious.

Bob Wilson

 

Some people like the shifting.

I found the Sonic more spacious than the Camry.

Things like these are why test drives are important.

 

Any idea where pricing for the PHEV might land?

 

The current PHEV is $3000 more. The new hybrid isn't getting any major mechanical changes, so I wouldn't expect the PHEV to get any.

 

It does have a bigger battery and a stronger electric motor. I'm afraid that also means a higher price.

 

The current Niro PHEV has a bigger battery and more powerful motor than the hybrid. Unless the new one has an even greater increase in motor power and/or battery size, the price difference of the new one should be near that of the current models. Maybe inflation will increase it some, or Kia finds savings somewhere, like GM with the Bolt and Volt.

 

The new one will have a 33-mile ev range and 180 HP. Looks like a compelling package.

 

Hope that the 2023 has a heatpump.....living in a cool climate a PHEV without a heatpump turns it into a Hybrid when heat is required....compromising the EV mode operation , then the Ev range spec does not quite cut it.

 

Looks like a assumption I had about the Niro was wrong. The original Ioniq had different motors between the hybrid and PHEV. The gen1 Niro used the more powerful one in both. Then new PHEV is getting a more powerful one now, about twice the power rating of the current.

Nope, I had it right. Kia's site has the 2023 Niro up, and the PHEV still 2022. The new hybrid is getting the motor the old PHEV had. This does mean my $3000 listed earlier was between the two MYs. With the 2023 price increase, the 2022 difference was $4800.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Niro

The OP article added this: UPDATE 10/10/22: Kia has now announced pricing for the plug-in-hybrid version of the 2023 Niro, which starts at $35,035. That's a $4150 increase from last year, although the previous base LX trim level has been dropped, meaning that higher price includes more standard equipment. The Niro PHEV now comes only in EX and SX Touring trim levels, with the latter starting at $40,875.

The 2022 EX to 2023 EX increase is $1645. Dropping the LX does mean the starting price difference for the new hybrid and PHEV is $7,250. The hybrid comes in an EX and EX Touring trim. Not 100% sure what the PHEV starting trim is from the update. It's a $3645 to $5945 difference over the hybrid's EX Touring and EX trim.

Sucks there isn't a LX PHEV anymore, but we probably should have expected it with plug in demand and component supply constraints. On the other hand, the feature content with higher trim could mean Kia can sell the PHEV option alone for a lower price. As Toyota does with AWD and hybrid system with the US Rav4.

Heat pump for the BEV only.

The basic philosophy for not having it in the PHEV is that there is an engine that needs to be used. Not using it means things could break, and gas goes bad. Most PHEVs will eventually fire up the engine to waste fuel to avoid that. If there is a time when using the engine would be better the EV, why not do that instead of wasting gas on a maintenance cycle? The overall efficiency of running the car and heating the cabin with gasoline might be better than using electricity from coal or natural gas for the motor and heat pump. The Prius Prime has a heat pump, but it doesn't have resistive heaters for heating and defogging when the heat pump no longer will do.

Plus, it is probably still easier to source auto AC's than auto heat pumps, and Kia has BEV models to think about.

The above PHEV review did say the engine was quick to shut down after it had come on. 'Pulse and coasting' the engine for heat might be a viable strategy.

Review: 2023 Kia Niro EV, hybrid, and PHEV up their efficiency credentials

Kia's projections for hybridHEV:EV sales is 65:10:25.

That air blade on the back quarter panel actual serves an aero purpose in cleaning up air flow off the rear.

 

You gave a fair summary of the Kia and there will be buyers … just not me:

• Hybrid - the Prius set the mark 20 years ago.
• PHEV - the Prius Prime spoiled them for us. Our 2014 BMW i3 REx remains in service WITHOUT a mechanical transmission and the poor Kia control laws over engine operation.
• BEV - my 83,000 mi Model 3 ain’t broke.

Good summary even if it did not convince me.

Bob Wilson

 

I answer
The Prius Prime heatpump will provide heat until outside temp goes lower than 8 deg F give or take a few degree. No need for resistive heaters . In need of defrosting the ICE will kick in. Below 8 deg F the Ice kicks in.I know a few owner of corean PHEV very upset that the engine comes on at 52 deg F for heating..not pleased with Pulse and coasting the engine for heat ,it messes up the EV experience....that it is what they reported to me.

 

Power-split hybrids are higher cost because you need more powerful motors to get the system working properly. That is something that doesn't behave in a way that will keep a customer from buying. This becomes a plus if you are also making a PHEV version, as you can have a lower price difference, because the different models need the same motors.

A full power parallel hybrid system can match a power-split in efficiency for less cost, because it needs less powerful motors. We didn't get them 20 years ago, because controlling the engine, motor, transmission, and clutches connecting them wasn't possible then. My guess is they worked, but hard 'shifting' left them unsellable.

While lower cost as a hybrid, a parallel PHEV with EV operation beyond city speeds needs a more powerful motor in addition to a bigger battery. This leads to a larger price difference between the hybrid and PHEV. To keep that price in check, and motors and batteries were higher cost for the gen1 models, Hyundai/Kia opted to have the PHEV to operate as a more blended system with less powerful motor. It's a draw back for a 'true' EV experience, but not all markets desire that. The Prius Prime does not have the full EV mode in Europe that North America gets.

The Prius Prime has 102hp and 81mph top speed with both motors in EV mode. The new Niro PHEV motor is 111hp. I don't think it will have much trouble giving a full EV experience for most people.

The published specs for the heat pump is 14F minimum temperature. Toyota went with a heat pump because there are plenty of customers that want the EV experience. For an even fuller EV experience, they could have given the car resistive heaters for when the heat pump isn't enough; that's what a BEV would have. There are posters here that get upset when the Prime's engine comes on as infrequently as it does.

Toyota didn't do that because of operation and cost considerations. H/K just drew that line at a different point. Unlike the Prius and Rav4, the Ioniq and Niro have(had) a BEV version for those people that wanted the full EV experience. For them, the PHEV is designed for reducing gasoline use at an affordable price, not the EV experience. While a heat pump would help EV operation in the cold, it does so at a higher price.

 

Thank you for the analysis
Granted , one of the objectives for PHEV is reducing gasoline use , it applies to H/K and Toyota . But for my personnal needs and preferences I went for Toyota PHEV for the heatpump and the HSD . Average temp here is around 50deg F seven month a year and yes the EV experience is addictive.
I have noted my last 7 months of driving. The numbers are in SI so I translated the american units.
4684 miles , 147 miles/Us gallon , and today's highest temp 53 deg F. BTW price of gas here , is $4.84USD for a gallon
80 % in EV city driving
20% in HV on highways
Charging every 2 days costing approx $0.50 USD

 

I appreciate your analysis:

Power-split hybrids are higher cost because you need more powerful motors to get the system working properly. …​

Just I disagree because of the parts count. A BEV has nearly two orders of magnitude fewer moving parts. Losing them would be a ‘rounding error’ for motor costs as part of the vehicle especially when the labor is included.

Supporting evidence come from the operating profit of Tesla. But Tesla continues to improve with gigs-casting and other parts removal.

Bob Wilson

 

Another thing to keep in mind is that heat pumps for automotive use are still relatively new. There are fewer companies making a smaller supply for now. Tesla only started using them a few years ago. Most car makers will prioritize them for BEVs, and even by market. One of Hyundai's BEVs (Kona?) doesn't get a hump pump in the US, but it does in Canada.

I was talking about hybrids, not BEVs. But since we are here, the drive unit(motor, inverter, control electronics, and transaxle) for a BEV could cost more than an engine and transmission of similar output. The latter has a far higher part content, but that is just part of the cost. Another part is materials, and the motor needs more expensive stuff.

There is a lot of copper in there. About 160 pounds more than in the ICE's wiring harnesses. Scrap metal prices were easier to find for a comparison. Bright copper wire is $2.80 a pound. The cast iron most engines are made from is $205 a ton. Iron and steel are too cheap for scrap yards to buy it by the pound.

https://copperalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/2017.06-E-Mobility-Factsheet-1.pdf
National Scrap Metal Prices - Today's Scrap Metal Prices

 

We'll have to agree to disagree:

• Motor - BEV has one weighing less than the ICE which also includes an electric starter motor. Per Munro break downs.
• Inverter - Power inverter is unique but I've carried around a Prius inverter several times. Per Munro, integrating the inverter with the motor housing makes them substantially lower weight than even our Prius inverters. Integration eliminates large power cables.
• Control electronics - the Tesla uses a pair of master controllers for redundancy and this substantially reduces the number of embedded control computers found in 'grab bag' vehicles. It is why Tesla so easily avoided the dreaded 'schip shortage.'
• Transaxle - after making torque and rpm, everything else is the same except there are no clutches, shifting gear sets, torque converters, e.t.c. The BEV has a simple, direct step-down gear.
• Not mentioned, traction battery - certainly the traction battery is the elephant in the room. Yet curiously my 55 kWh battery meant my Model 3 weights only 3,800 lbs.

I would also bring up the two-edged, Wright's law that states the incremental cost of producing additional units is less than the initial piece cost. The inverse is also true that as fewer and fewer ICE vehicles are made, their engine, transmission, and body costs will go up.

Bob Wilson

 

Why are you making everything about Tesla?

My original comment was a comparison between different hybrid systems, and their use for PHEVs. You bring up BEVs.

I address generic BEVs, and you turn to Tesla for specifics.

As for using Tesla profits as evidence here, if you had to replace your Model 3 today, it cost $10,000 more than the 2019. Saying that is a bit more than inflation would be tongue in cheek. The FSD option has also seen a $9k increase since then.