Featured Tesla loses the race for mainstream EVs to GM

The gear shifter is similar to what Acura is using. Does takes getting use to.

Munro wants buttons removed. Yeah it saves on cost, but touch screens do take more concentration and time to use.
Däckpartiklar fångas upp med kopparplattor | Vi Bilägare
Buttons beat touchscreens in cars, and now there’s data to prove it | Ars Technica
https://psych.utah.edu/news/strayer-infotainment-dangerous.php

 

I think both GM and Tesla are "mainstream" and so is the Bolt.

If we talk about Ford and Chevy, which one won the mainstream race?

To me, the car that wins is the one that I will eventually buy. So far Tesla doesn't seem like it will be my winner.

• Doing a nationwide search on Autotempest, the cheapest used Tesla I could find is a 2013 Model S with 70K miles for $28,800. The cheapest used Bolt I could find was a 2019 with 92K miles for $20,848 (or the second cheapest has only 24K miles for $22,495). Both are more than my budget, but the Bolt is closer.
• The Bolt seems like it would be cheaper to repair.
• The Bolt is FWD (better than RWD for where I live). An AWD Tesla is even farther away from my budget.

After my experience in a Nissan Leaf, I don't want an EV until they have more range. Around 250 miles still is not enough for an EV that will lose more than two thirds of it's range in a freezing cold snow storm over a mountain pass.

Exactly. So if Tesla does make lots and lots of cars, then eventually the used ones will come down in price and I may buy one. For us used car buyers, price is what determines what we will buy. For an example I hate crossovers and SUV's, yet my next vehicle may be a stinking CUV or SUV because I'd like a vehicle with 3 rows of seats and those are much more affordable than a minivan anymore.

 

I agree with Sandy except he left off the slow, 50 kW, fast DC charge rate.

We have a 50 kW charging BMW i3 with a smaller, 18.3 kWh battery and it is impractical for cross country, EV only operation. Our 2019 Model 3 initially had a 100 kw charge limit for the 55 kWh battery and worked fine for cross country. However, raising the charge rate to 170 kW peak made it much better.

Bob Wilson

 

I think EVs are still in the early phase, which means no one has "won" yet. It's like a marathon. Well, the beginning when everyone is showing up and it's just about to start.

Looking at some common routes I often do (looking at them on Plugshare), I'd have to go 125 miles without a charging station of any kind on just the first leg, then 140 on the second going off CCS. Another route would put me at right around 200 miles on one leg between charging stations, unless I have a Tesla and add 30 miles to that so that I can have a 165 mile leg at the longest.

Mind you, these are routes where deep slush or snow are common in the winter, as well as temps well below zero. I don't know how a Bolt or Tesla compares, but the Leaf ended up with less than half the range simply from -15° F weather, no snow. I've seen it hit -52° F and wonder what that would do to a BEV. That, and snow and slush really would eat the Leaf's range.

When there are enough charging stations and EV's have enough range that a person could say an EV with snow tires trudging through snow or slush in freezing weather over mountain passes will not be at a huge risk of being stranded then I might consider one again. That and they can't cost way more than what I can afford.

As far as touch screens go, I don't like them. But oh well, everything is coming out with a touch screen these days.

 

There’s a difference to me between what is popular and what I would buy. An EV would have to advertise over 350 miles of range in order for me to feel comfortable that it would get me there and back to some places I tend to visit when it’s very cold out and the car is several years old. And all the ones who have that kind of range are wildly out of my budget.

 

The Leaf has a cheap thermal management system that leads to problems when you get out of the temperate range of temperatures. Cooling is just air convection; there is no fan. This why early packs were dying in Arizona, and why the model sees faster capacity loss than others.

There is no heating. Just freeze protection. With below freezing air moving over the battery, it takes longer to reach its preferred operating temperatures, if it ever does. So the battery isn't working as efficiently has it could. That's before cabin heating and the inefficiencies of driving in cold weather are applied to range.

The Bolt and Tesla both have active heating to get the battery to the temperature where it is happiest. Their percent range loss to cold is better than the Leaf's.

Where you live, you will also want a heat pump for the cabin, preferably one that scavenges heat from the battery, motor, and power electronics, to minimize range loss to cabin heating.

Screen controls can be done well, and buttons done badly.

My complaint with the Outback's screen is lag. A moment to open a window isn't a problem when sitting on your couch, but it is when moving down a road.

 

He addressed the charging in the first video.

 

a lot of nitpicking in the first video (wrap up)

i like the sound of the bolt evu size wise, if they really come in under 30k.

 

Currently, it can be a struggle to get any car for MSRP.

 

true, i'm hoping in a few years, when things might get back to some kind of normal, anf gm has shown they have a good product.

 

I certainly hope so. The time the Leaf left us 30 miles out of town I was driving with the heater off, freezing to death, and only would turn the defrost on when I couldn't see any more. It also had a heat pump,

 

As you describe your intended usage and price limits, EVs and even plug-in hybrids are probably beyond your consideration right now.

 

Exactly. But the same is true for at least half the population. Only about %5 of the population in the USA buys a new car in any particular year, and around a third of the population will buy a new car in their lifetime from what I understand. And of those, only a small percent buys EV's or plug-in hybrids. The result is in the USA only about 1% of cars on the road are electric.

The same goes for many other countries, many of them worse off financially than the USA:

 

patience grasshopper

the market is growing nicely, allowing the electric grid to keep up, which few are focused on

 

To this day, despite being an Apple shareholder for 25 years, I remain amazed how a very large percent of the population spends ~$1000k for the latest iPhone and gets a new one every ~couple of years [mostly concerning folks at <25% income quartile]. What is affordable and what people actually do are not necessarily congruent.

We may be seeing similar phenomena with new vehicles. BEVs are often described as iPhones with wheels. A $50k new vehicle every 7-10 years isn't necessarily any more punishing than an average mortgage.

 

I was thinking the same thing. You go to some country where most working adults make $100 a week and everyone has a $1,000 iPhone, even the kids.

Of course on the other hand we have lots of people feeling the sqeeze so hard they've had to go homeless. I know several who camp in the forests (illegally) around where I live because they can't afford a home to live in. They may have a $1,000 iPhone, but no home. I suppose the same may end up happening with cars. It seems people either like to pay as much as impractically possibly, or they just give up on owning one.

 

You describe a situation that has often puzzled me.
I have a flip phone and other members of our family have smart phones, they are cheaper models but fine for us. The one child had to have an iphone to sync with some devices she had so we got a cheap used Apple SE phone for less than $300 used from our carrier.

I ride a bicycle around a large citiy's dedicated paved bike path a couple time a week and the path is 25 miles long and about 1/2 mile winds around a shelter and support home/kitchen for the homeless. Unfortunately, they are often lying around in this area. They all have nice new smartphones to play games and apparently watch videos on if the many we pass are any indication, apparently all phone and plans provided by the Government free of cost. Also at least 90% if not more are smoking cigarettes that go for at least $5 a pack or vaping which cost who knows how much. You also are always likely to see ambulance and police around this area preoccupied with the many overdoses, alcohol fueled incidents or associated health problems from living this type of lifestyle.

It is truly a society gone mad that rewards this type of behavior with phones, phone plans, money for vices and housing.

 

The pricier 2022 Bolt LT costs less to own over five years than the Trax LT. Well, for me. Gas is still over $4 a gallon and electric reasonable here.

The buying a new car figure is skewed by depreciation. Many people buy pre-owned because it is a better value, not because they couldn't afford new.

 

I've bought used in the past. You'd be surprised with what you'd fined with poorly done or even dangerous mods. On that account, I now only buy new.

 

You are focusing too narrowly.
First, there is about 15% of the population that doesn’t drive at all.
Of the 16 Million (roughly) new cars sold, almost 900,000 were EVs. A bit over 5% of the market.
Also, there are people that buy used EVs (I know, I’ve sold a number over the last 10 years).

The number of vehicles in the USA is about 200 Million. It takes time to put a dent in that. Luckily, more and more companies are getting the clue that the future is electric. I wish more of our politicians would